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Stolperstein

en.wikipedia.org

101–110 of 187 posts

Re: Stolperstein

#101

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

> I do find that Stolpersteine presume too much upon the public space to the point of becoming tasteless and an affront.

Oh please, they are 10x10 cm (or even smaller), how can they take up "too much public space"?

In my street in Berlin there are Stolpersteine almost in front of every house. They are a memorial just as much as they have become integral part of the "environment". In my daily life I don't pay much attention anymore, but sometimes they still make me stop and think, and I guess this was exactly the intent.

Re: Stolperstein

#102

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

wow. It's just a 10 cm by 10 cm plate, how can it bother anybody? I guess modern generation just can't stand monuments.

Re: Stolperstein

#103

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

No post body was provided.

Re: Stolperstein

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.

[flagged]

For such claims you really need to provide solid sources. I have never encountered this sort of "blame shifting" (schooled in East Germany in the 80's, but I also never heard that from the "other side").

The only sort of blame shifting related to Poland that I encountered in East German propaganda was that the Katyn massacre was blamed on Nazi Germany, not on the Soviet Union.

Of course there are extremely far right organizations in Germany which to this day try to deflect the blame, but they are a minority and don't influence the public discourse (unless you live in their bubble of fake news and propaganda of course).

But in general I don't see why nationality matters much in this case. When talking about persecuted Jews, communists, homosexuals (or any other group persecuted by the nazis) of course this also includes Polish Jews, communists and homosexuals.

Re: Stolperstein

#105
So there was a borderline-neonazi comment i wanted to reply to, but it got flagged in the meantime. It argued that there was an international jewish-communist conspiracy in pre-WWII Germany, and that WWII served to establish the UN as a means to demolish national sovereignty, and that Israel is an ethnonationalist State. In case this person is still around reading, or someone else believes such things, here was my answer i couldn't post under the now-deleted comment:

Wow, i was not expecting to find a neonazi comment here on HN. To be clear, i agree with your criticism of Israel as ethnonationalist and despite immense propaganda efforts it's becoming harder and harder for Israel proponents to pretend otherwise. (And for the record, a lot of Israelis also make that point and struggle every day against their whole racist/colonial machine)

However, the threat of "jewish communism" (judeo-bolshevism as they called it back then) is a spectre invented by nazis and fueled by more ancient conspiracy theories such as the protocol of the elders of zion (spread by Russian political police in early 20th century). Just like today, at least here in France, the neo-nazis and other fascists and warning of the threat of "islamo-leftism", and inventing debilitating theories about "reverse racism" and "reverse colonization" and "white genocide".

As for "world government" and the destruction of national sovereignty, two things:

1. International agreements such as the UN have on the contrary formalized the concept of national sovereignty and non-intervention

2. Of course those principles are never respected and the big empires will do whatever is in their interests: this was already the case long before the UN with the League of Nations, and even long before that, such as when the Berlin conference (19th century) formally divided Africa into territories to be ruled by the colonial empires. The reason there are straight borders on African maps is because some european aristocrats who knew nothing about these territories sat around a table with a ruler and traced lines.

To be clear, your thoughts are not illegal, but they are very wrong. I encourage you to get a better understanding of history from different sources, and maybe realize that Israel is not much more than any other colonial empire of today. In fact, many of their repression/counter-insurgency techniques are straight out of French doctrine established during the Algerian war of independence. So why are some people desperately focusing on Israel as the driving force of evil around the world? From some arab/muslim community, i understand they can relate to the victims of Israeli colonialism... but from white westerners (no idea if that's your case), it certainly plays into the old antisemite trope of an imaginary international jewish alliance trying to control the planet.

Re: Stolperstein

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching th…

I always thought that a firstperson shooter game where whenever you killed a mook you'd get a quick flashback of that person's life would have been a super interesting concept. Especially if it was a Call of Duty like game, rather than a game where you could choose to avoid killing.

Sniper Elite 5 has something like that: every enemy has a short biography visible when you aim at them. Didn't play the game, but like the gesture - people are people no matter what side you are on, doesn't matter who you dehumanize, it's wrong either way.

Re: Stolperstein

#107
post #61
post #7

It's weird that the article explicitly mentiones various groups that were killed/deported to German concentration camps across Europe and commemorated by the stones, but does not mention the second largest one - Poles. German historical policy tends to not include Poles as victims the 1939-1945 Germany, but in spite of that, there are multiple stones commemorating them in today's Berlin.

I looked into the german version, expecting it to mention it more, but Poland is just mentioned once in a side sentence. It kinda saddens me.

That’s because the German version doesn’t list groups at all. It just talks about "victims of the NS regime" in the general.

Re: Stolperstein

#108

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then.

I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Europe. Most of the western world seems to not have learned much at all from the second world war and are yet again running black sites, funneling money to regimes and fighting wars to defend some of them.

Unfortunately I think part of the popularity of these stone today is that they are no longer provocative. Their existence doesn't seem to have the effect of for example highlighting still exiting companies participation in the holocaust, current day trade policies or crimes against humanity. Putting one of these outside a company, judge or commander involved in past or present atrocities would probably result in it quickly being removed and you potentially landing in jail.

But I guess that even if few learns the bigger lesson they might still be a net positive.

Re: Stolperstein

#109
post #108

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Eu…

Putin is not the only person who was successful with this strategy. Usually it goes like this: an enemy attacks us, we defend ourselves, this unites us, and that unity is then abused in the future to legitimize authoritarian rule or even - as in the case of Putin's invasion of Ukraine - a full-scale war.

It makes no difference if a person was killed for ridiculing Fuhrer, hiding Jews or refusing to serve vodka[0]. Death is death and I hope one day humanity understands no war makes sense and we stop this insanity, working together to make everybody's lives better, not just one nation we happen to be associated with.

[0] https://uarefugees.news/hot-news/in-bucha-the-invaders-shot-...

Re: Stolperstein

#110

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a site where I suppose the victim of Nazi aggression lived before being taken to a concentration camp to perish. Although I see these stones all over Vienna, and find myself in contemplation every single time I see them elsewhere around Europe, it is even more…

What makes this possible in Europe is the Nazi mania for documentation. In Australia, as in the US, the killings happened over decades in a far more random/opportunistic way and records of how many died and where are extremely patchy, with few if any names recorded:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenou...

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