Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag • Hacker News Board

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#101

Post by technomancy » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 4:54 AM UTC

PerryCox wrote: post #77

hasenj wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, they do plan to put more configuration options eventually, but they're focusing right now on getting the defaults right. P.S. I don't understand why the screen saver is important (or why it even exists, for that matter).

I couldn't agree more. Lots of people are panicking about Unity because it's not as configurable as Gnome use to be, but they forget that we're in a transition period. Unity is brand spanking new, and I'm sure it'll have more configuration options in the future.

That might be a good point if it weren't already so simple to build user interfaces that are simultaneously obvious to newbies while at the same time being ridiculously extensible. You just build it in a language that exposes a repl. Mozilla doesn't even do a particularly good job at this (given how they bury the replness), and it's still fostered a plugin ecosystem that has kept it competitive despite competitors eating its lunch on performance grounds.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#102

Post by 0x0x0x » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 4:55 AM UTC

kungfooey wrote: post #71

Zak wrote: post #26

Ubuntu used to be Debian that just worked. Now it's trying to be something more, but it seems to have lost the "just works" part. When I tried 11.10, I had problems with several of the desktop environments crashing or being very visibly broken. I had poor graphics performance. I had no suspend/resume. All of these things worked on the same computer a year ago. I think Ubuntu may be trying to move too fast. Moving fas…

I agree with you. I have been an Ubuntu user since 6.06, and 11.10 was the buggiest release yet, by far. I actually bought a Mac on Friday. I need a development environment that works. I don't like spending time yak-shaving when I could be solving real problems.

And interestingly enough to what some are complaining about the screen saver, on OS X the screen saver, desktop picture, and sound theme are bastard children with near zero updates in a decade. Straight up. But they're still customizable for people who want to.

What's wrong with that? Just provide a standard install location and let those that want to utilize it do so.

As an avid Mac OS X/Linux/Ubuntu user, I really truly don't get the direction Canonical is heading with Unity.

edit: spelling

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#103

Post by skystorm » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 4:59 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #89

eh, personally, I also hate unity. I am a linux SysAdmin, so if I want to go muck around in the internals or install and configure my own window manager, sure, I can. But that's not why I use ubuntu on the desktop. I use ubuntu on the desktop because it just works. If I want to tinker with Linux, I can do it on a server and get paid for it. With older versions of ubuntu? heck, getting drivers is usually easier than w…

I was in the same boat and ended up switching to Xubuntu -- and I don't regret it for one second. I get all the good stuff ("just works") with a sleek, customizable UI, that also happens to be very frugal wrt. system resources. It's a win-win really. :)

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#104

Post by technomancy » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 5:19 AM UTC

cpeterso wrote: post #83

Zak wrote: post #26

Ubuntu used to be Debian that just worked. Now it's trying to be something more, but it seems to have lost the "just works" part. When I tried 11.10, I had problems with several of the desktop environments crashing or being very visibly broken. I had poor graphics performance. I had no suspend/resume. All of these things worked on the same computer a year ago. I think Ubuntu may be trying to move too fast. Moving fas…

Besides Unity, what does Ubuntu currently offer that Debian's testing or unstable releases don't? I'm also surprised that people are using Ubuntu on servers.

I consider myself ideologically more in line with Debian, but their refusal to support my wifi card along with an install process that's just got a few nasty quirks made me wary when I made the switch to stable a few months ago. Multiple spectacular failures upon upgrading to testing pushed me back to Ubuntu for the time being.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#105

Post by trimbo » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 5:20 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #87

trimbo wrote: post #13

A generation of hackers may have started with BASIC on Apple IIs, but getting a C compiler on a modern Mac is a 4GB XCode download The size of Xcode annoys me too, since I never use it. So I've been using this GCC install on my Mac: https://github.com/kennethreitz/osx-gcc-installer Couple hundred megabytes. It's still a lot larger than Orca/C was on my Apple IIgs (1 or 2 3.5" floppies?), but then again, compilers com…

Off topic, but you must be the first person I've ever encountered who also used ORCA/C.

I'm going to guess this probably isn't the first time we crossed paths then :)

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#106

Post by achiang » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 5:21 AM UTC

“[Our] goal is 200 million users of Ubuntu in 4 years. We’re not playing a game for developers hearts and minds – we’re playing a game for the worlds hearts and minds. and to achieve that we’re going to have to play by a new set of rules.”

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/05/mark-shuttleworth-deliver...

Also, re: screensavers -- upstream GNOME removed that ability, and Ubuntu inherited the behavior. From what I understand, we're putting it back.

[canonical employee, speaking on my own behalf]

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#107

Post by evan_ » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 5:21 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #74

devmach wrote: post #63

I think, the problems with the Ubuntu are : 1- They think users are plan stupid so they have to decide what's good for users. 2- They're just copying from Apple, don't think about why apple did like that. This will end up with a mess. When i use my friend's mac, i think "this thing can't be better" and then when i use ubuntu with unity all i can think is "What the f k they were thinking ?"

In response to 2), I use a friends mac and think "wtf were they thinking" quite often. Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? Apple makes a nice bit of kit, but please, can we stop with pretending they've got it perfect?

your first two complaints are actually fixed in Lion- and I have to disagree with your third. There's nothing in OS X you need to use a keyboard shortcut to do, and it's easy to find the shortcut for a menu item- it's displayed on the right side of the menu.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#108

Post by eropple » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:11 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #74

devmach wrote: post #63

I think, the problems with the Ubuntu are : 1- They think users are plan stupid so they have to decide what's good for users. 2- They're just copying from Apple, don't think about why apple did like that. This will end up with a mess. When i use my friend's mac, i think "this thing can't be better" and then when i use ubuntu with unity all i can think is "What the f k they were thinking ?"

In response to 2), I use a friends mac and think "wtf were they thinking" quite often. Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? Apple makes a nice bit of kit, but please, can we stop with pretending they've got it perfect?

Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border?

Neither is true in 10.7.

Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability?

For the most part, keystrokes follow similar patterns from application to application. There are inconsistencies (some applications use ctrl-tab to switch tabs, some use ctrl-pgup/pgdn) but for the most part it's self-consistent. (There are some nice power user tweaks, such as a subset of Emacs keystrokes available for navigation in text boxes, but they're not critical.)

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#109

Post by vacri » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:26 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #108

vacri wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to 2), I use a friends mac and think "wtf were they thinking" quite often. Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? Apple makes a nice bit of kit, but please, can we stop with pretending they've got it perfect?

Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Neither is true in 10.7. Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? For the most part, keystrokes follow similar patterns from application to application. There are inconsistencies (some applications use ctrl-tab to switch tabs, some use ctrl-pgup/pgdn) but for the most part it's self-consistent. (There are some nice…

I haven't used 10.7, but still, that those things were ommitted for so long is straight-out bizarre.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#110

Post by jroseattle » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 6:33 AM UTC

Maybe Canonical is trying to sell software and services, and needs a better UI in order to compete? While I echo the sentiments of the author, I'm guessing that Canonical is knowingly pursuing a certain market. A certain market that exceeds the Linux power-user/developer market in size.