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Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

talesoftimesforgotten.com

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Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#101

Post by PragmaticPulp »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #85
dukeofdoom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

For someone from the other side of the planet (former USSR), this list feels very weird. I can't imagine paying for a campsite (nobody here does, you just go wherever you want and take whatever place is available), or firewood (you can always find a dry tree trunk somewhere along the road, or there's a friend of a friend who will bring some from his own house). So although our minimum wages are absolutely atrocious b…

> For someone from the other side of the planet

I'm in North America and the list still feels very weird.

Going camping at a premium campsite alone (e.g. not splitting the bill with friends) only to consume $50 of beer and $15 of cigarettes is kind of a hilarious definition of camping.

FWIW, there are places where open camping is allowed in the Canada and the United States. The OP was using a specific car-camping site with reserved spots and amenities nearby.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#102

Post by googlryas »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #48
InCityDreams wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what/ divided how? Purchasing a tent, utensils, backpack etc ie starting from scratch, or assuming everything already paid for and just 'real costs' ie food, tent-place (ground rent?)? Decathlon.fr or .co.uk prices can be pretty cheap, but I'm not sure where the costs start.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

This has to be some kind of joke post. Or, you've never been camping. Or, more likely, you're just constructing scenarios to fit your perspective instead of being honest with yourself.

- Cigarettes and beer are a necessary part of camping?

- Not going far from home, but using ~23 liters of gas($50 @ 210/L) just to get there?

- Staying at the most expensive camp site(AA fee schedule) in Ontario?

- Paying for firewood instead of just collecting it?

- Spending $25/person/day on food?

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#103

Post by em-bee »

freemint wrote: post #78
hef19898 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of the greatest history channels on Youtube once said: "History isn't hapoening in a vaccuum". And they are right.

The first moon orbiting of a human happened in a vacuum. I hope more history happens in a vacuum.

i agree with your sentiment, but on the other hand, space isn't a pure vaccum, so technically even history in space doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#104

Post by otter-rock »

paganel wrote: post #89
dralley wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you really want to boil it down to a single reason, the best candidate would be "becoming militarily dependent on hired mercenaries and then not paying them" rather than something more interesting

It's also how the Byzantine Empire went into its downwards trajectory starting with the late 1000s. In fact, it was a little more complicated, as the Empire had to resort to using mercenaries because its theme system had been basically broken into pieces by the Empire oligarchy and by the Church, so Byzantium having to resort to mercenaries in order to defend itself was mostly, by that time, a consequence of said oli…

I can agree that it ceased being the Roman Empire per se, but I don't see it as being that much different from the end of the Roman Kingdom or the Roman Republic. It's still a continuation.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#105

Post by ARandomerDude »

swatcoder wrote: post #87
namaria wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of publishing, much like nutritional science, is great for scientists. You can fudge data into flip flopping conclusions every couple of years. Infinite papers = tenure.

If you could earnestly profile even a few scientists who have personally flip-flopped their way to tenure like that, you'd surely have a red carpet welcome across a thousand podcasts and alt-media outlets Heck, maybe you could even get tenure somewhere if you happened to have academic creds of your own. Surely someone's done it? Are you familiar with any such profiles that you could share?

How to get published: "Other authors are wrong."

How not to get published: "The general consensus is right."

So although individuals may not flip-flop constantly, fields as a whole do. Pick almost any topic in almost any field (especially humanities) and read papers 10-20 years apart. There's a constant cycle.

The cycle becomes self reinforcing too, because now you can interact with previous criticisms (Dr. A said this, but Dr. B said he was wrong. In fact, A was correct because B neglected to consider...).

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#106

Post by airstrike »

ugl wrote: post #43
leobg wrote: post #36

Beethoven, too, is suspected to have died from lead poisoning. In his case, too, a drinking cup for wine made of lead is the prime suspect.

Lead, or pewter [0]? Which was and still does sometimes contain lead which acidic drinks like wine can leach the Pb into solution. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter

Don’t (virtually) all crystal “glasses” also contain lead?

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#107

Post by swatcoder »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #105
swatcoder wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could earnestly profile even a few scientists who have personally flip-flopped their way to tenure like that, you'd surely have a red carpet welcome across a thousand podcasts and alt-media outlets Heck, maybe you could even get tenure somewhere if you happened to have academic creds of your own. Surely someone's done it? Are you familiar with any such profiles that you could share?

How to get published: "Other authors are wrong." How not to get published: "The general consensus is right." So although individuals may not flip-flop constantly, fields as a whole do. Pick almost any topic in almost any field (especially humanities) and read papers 10-20 years apart. There's a constant cycle. The cycle becomes self reinforcing too, because now you can interact with previous criticisms ( Dr. A said t…

Yes, earnestly contributing your effort towards a controversial or unsettled issue is a good way to publish and make progress in your career.

And yes, some fields aren’t able to perform the kind of reliable science of physics or chemistry, and so end up with a lot of papers that just collectively oscillate around topics.

But I have a hard time seeing how that’s what the above commenter was suggesting.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#108

Post by stinkytaco »

googlryas wrote: post #102
dukeofdoom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

This has to be some kind of joke post. Or, you've never been camping. Or, more likely, you're just constructing scenarios to fit your perspective instead of being honest with yourself. - Cigarettes and beer are a necessary part of camping? - Not going far from home, but using ~23 liters of gas($50 @ 210/L) just to get there? - Staying at the most expensive camp site(AA fee schedule) in Ontario? - Paying for firewood…

I agree this is a troll, but I'd like to point out a few things:

> - Not going far from home, but using ~23 liters of gas($50 @ 210/L) just to get there?

Absolutely could see this. I live in the US, but the nearest spot I'd like to go camping is probably a $50 round trip. And I'd like to camp in different places, so we're starting to look at $50 being entirely reasonable if I made a list of places I'd like to camp. Not every trip, but certainly within the realm of possibility.

> - Paying for firewood instead of just collecting it?

For what it's worth, this is not allowed in many parks.

> - Spending $25/person/day on food?

This doesn't sound insane in the context of a trip, even a camping trip. You'll probably buy some special meat to grill, marshmallows to roast, some trail mix and maybe stop for food on the way out or back. $25 isn't really that crazy when you're traveling.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#109

Post by mr_toad »

paganel wrote: post #89
dralley wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you really want to boil it down to a single reason, the best candidate would be "becoming militarily dependent on hired mercenaries and then not paying them" rather than something more interesting

It's also how the Byzantine Empire went into its downwards trajectory starting with the late 1000s. In fact, it was a little more complicated, as the Empire had to resort to using mercenaries because its theme system had been basically broken into pieces by the Empire oligarchy and by the Church, so Byzantium having to resort to mercenaries in order to defend itself was mostly, by that time, a consequence of said oli…

The later emperors were also reluctant to rely on armies commanded by native Byzantine generals, who had a long track record of usurpation.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#110

Post by notahacker »

dqpb wrote: post #76
colechristensen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people died and disappeared, whole cities were abandoned, those that weren’t often had a tenth of their previous populations, people receded to subsistence agriculture, and literacy went to almost zero. If you took an interest in a subject and read a few books, you could be the worlds foremost expert on it. This was most prevalent in the west. Rome was just a few sparks away from triggering an industrial revo…

> Rome was just a few sparks away from triggering an industrial revolution a thousand years early That’s a pretty amazing idea.

I remember reading a very entertaining story as a kid by John Christopher (typically an author of juvenile sf) in which basically the opposite happened (the protagonists are transported to an alternative 1981 in which the Roman Empire survived in stable form basically unchanged, and they're able to transform its fortunes with longbows and pendulums... although helping the underground Pope legitimise Christianity as a religion doesn't go quite as well as expected. Special props to the author for having the imagination to conceive that the pendulum could be used as a torture instrument!
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