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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

101–110 of 136 posts

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s really just not true overall. Bernie Sanders policies would be considered far left by even European standards, and he almost won the nomination. The abortion and social justice positions are also far left compared to Europe

Which policies do you mean exactly? Because I don't see anything on first glance or from memory that wouldn't be at home at your typical center-left social democrat party here in Europe.

Sorry for the Quora link but it has a pretty good overview https://qr.ae/pvFQkJ This also doesn't cover his free housing plan which is very left.

On abortion https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/05/06/abortion-acces...

Also the current views of liberals on race and gender are far left by European standards

Totally get that we currently have a significantly smaller welfare state though.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In SF, rapes and robberies are both down in 2021/2022 compared to 2018. Murder and shootings are comparable with 2018. Car thefts are up. All of which completely goes against this narrative you've described. The rising crime narrative is entirely an artifact of the pandemic causing historically low crim because for like 8 months no one did anything.

> In SF I'm not sure about SF in particular, but my account was for the US as a whole. > Murder and shootings are comparable with 2018. This is incorrect. SF homicides: Year | Homicides -----+---------- 2018 | 44 2019 | 41 2020 | 48 2021 | 56 That's a 25% increase since 2018. Source: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor... . > The rising crime narrative is entirely an artifact of the pandemic…

> That's a 25% increase since 2018. Source: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor....

And in 2022 we're on track for somewhere between 40 and 48, precisely in line with prior years. A single outlier year does not a trend make.

> and then the trend abruptly reversed around 2014

Until 2016, when it began dropping again, and then it jumped up a ton in 2020 but we don't really have data yet to know if that was a fluke or not. (it really looks like the 2014 thing was just regression to the mean).

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#103
post #44
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another. If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll t…

It seems republicans have moved further to the right than democrats have to the left:

https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/151975976283299430...

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which policies do you mean exactly? Because I don't see anything on first glance or from memory that wouldn't be at home at your typical center-left social democrat party here in Europe.

Sorry for the Quora link but it has a pretty good overview https://qr.ae/pvFQkJ This also doesn't cover his free housing plan which is very left. On abortion https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/05/06/abortion-acces... Also the current views of liberals on race and gender are far left by European standards Totally get that we currently have a significantly smaller welfare state though.

That summary on Quora is pretty decent and supports my statement of center-left positioning and that social democrats are probably the closest match. Some things like free tuition, free school meals are not really far left, but center-left at most. Some things like improving the voting system are not really applicable here, since we have somewhat less problematic voting systems compared to US. Other things like holding big tech accountable is less obviously placed, since it kinda has support and opposition from both ends of the spectrum.

Not sure what your point about abortion is, but kinda seems to me like that is mostly aligned with Europe too? And neither are race and gender issues far-left issues here, but that's also more centrist and only the far-right really fighting against it (depending on what is meant exactly.. kinda broad topic).

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi…

Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks. Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exempti…

Getting approval from a doctor, requiring a justified medical requirement, is not remotely trivial. I think you’re very unfamiliar with what some of the pro-abortion people are pushing in the US.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#106
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

"but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree" ?? Drag queen story hour????

In the Bay Area, slavery is taught to kindergartners. People on the left never believe me. I almost cried when my niece said that people like her used own people like her uncle/cousin. What a way to seed racism…

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So hurray, people learned from the horrors of the 20th century that socialism inevitably leads to rampant corruption, suffering and genocide? Socialism caused 100 deaths for every death the Nazis caused, I don't understand how we don't see someone advocating for it as equally appalling to someone making pro-Nazi statements. Whether you look at the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Venez…

"people learned from the horrors of the 20th century that socialism inevitably leads to rampant corruption, suffering and genocide?" That's not due to socialism but totalitarianism and corruption. There have been plenty of corrupt totalitarians on the right too, but apparently no one's learned any lessons there, except how to emulate them.

Unfortunately, socialism isn’t a solution for corruption. In fact, many would argue that the centralized power makes it easier/inevitable.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In SF I'm not sure about SF in particular, but my account was for the US as a whole. > Murder and shootings are comparable with 2018. This is incorrect. SF homicides: Year | Homicides -----+---------- 2018 | 44 2019 | 41 2020 | 48 2021 | 56 That's a 25% increase since 2018. Source: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor... . > The rising crime narrative is entirely an artifact of the pandemic…

> That's a 25% increase since 2018. Source: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor .... And in 2022 we're on track for somewhere between 40 and 48, precisely in line with prior years. A single outlier year does not a trend make. > and then the trend abruptly reversed around 2014 Until 2016, when it began dropping again, and then it jumped up a ton in 2020 but we don't really have data yet to kno…

> And in 2022 we're on track for somewhere between 40 and 48, precisely in line with prior years. A single outlier year does not a trend make.

I didn't claim a trend in SF homicides, I was responding to your claim that 2021 homicides are at the same level as 2018.

> Until 2016, when it began dropping again, and then it jumped up a ton in 2020 but we don't really have data yet to know if that was a fluke or not. (it really looks like the 2014 thing was just regression to the mean).

The post-2020 "spike" (is it a spike if it hasn't come back down abruptly/dramatically?) has persisted for 2 years. Researchers insist the ~2014 surge was not a fluke or a blip, and the 2020-2022 "spike" is much more dramatic.

> “These aren’t flukes or blips, this is a real increase,” he said. “It was worrisome. We need to figure out why it happened.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/13/ferguson-eff...

And researchers disagree that the 2014 surge was merely a regression to the mean. From https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/13/ferguson-eff...:

> While it’s not clear what drove the increases, he said, he believes there is some connection between high-profile protests over police killings of unarmed black men, a further breakdown in black citizens’ trust of the police, and an increase in community violence.

> “The only explanation that gets the timing right is a version of the Ferguson effect,” Rosenfeld said. Now, he said, that’s his “leading hypothesis”.

> “That led me to conclude, preliminarily, that something like a Ferguson effect was responsible for the increase,” he said.

From https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crim...:

> Campbell’s research also indicates that these protests correlate with a 10 percent increase in murders in the areas that saw BLM protests. That means from 2014 to 2019, there were somewhere between 1,000 and 6,000 more homicides than would have been expected if places with protests were on the same trend as places that did not have protests. Campbell’s research does not include the effects of last summer’s historic wave of protests because researchers do not yet have all the relevant data. ... His research on homicides aligns with other evidence. Omar Wasow, a professor at Princeton University who has done seminal research on the effect of protests, told Vox that the results are “entirely plausible” and “not surprising,” considering existing protest research.

Note also the aforementioned paper (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27324/w273...) from famed Harvard economist Roland Fryer and Tanaya Devi which found an increase in violent crime rate in cities that experienced a prominent BLM shooting (and subsequent protests), resulting in an additional 900 homicides and 34,000 excess felonies across two years. They suggest that this was caused by changes in the quantity of policing.

We'll have to wait for the 2020 and 2021 data to understand that spike; however, it seems really unlikely that prior to 2020 homicides were driven by anti-policing protests, but afterward it's merely a coincidence that the largest homicide surge immediately followed the largest bout of anti-policing protests.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#109
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

This seems like a huge flaw, the idea that cities and law enforcement agencies are reporting their own crime statistics. There's an obvious conflict of interest, it seems like this should be done by a 3rd party. I know it's not that simple, but at least getting some neutral indication of the level of crime in a city would go a long ways. Crime is visibly exploding, the police are only recording the most heinous/obvio…

Do you have a methodology to go with that proposal?

When the paperwork is filled in, we have reported crime (because the police take a police report) and we have convictions (how many people were convicted is a matter of public record since courts are open). What we don’t have is a paper trail for all the crime that isn’t reported or when the paperwork isn’t filled out.

What can a third party bring to the table that the paper records cannot?

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#110
post #44
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another. If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll t…

The Republican party has clearly demonstrated a desire and willingness to subvert democracy, decency, and rule of law to get into power.
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