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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

31–40 of 136 posts

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#31
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

No post body was provided.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#32

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

100% false.

If there are no consequences, then a percentage of the population will go nuts.

I've had a few young kids ask about going to California to get toys since you don't have to pay for them there. In their mind it's a great deal. Explaining that it's wrong even though you get away with it is awkward.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU.

This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe.

There are some things where we're more right than Europe because Republicans or our constitution won't allow it, but that doesn't mean the American left isn't overwhelmingly quite far left.

And quite frankly, if you're comparing Republicans to Hitler you're too far left yourself to have a balanced perspective. You could just as easily say something like "The way the Democratic party treats white men in recent years is uncannily similar to how Hitler treated Jews..."

Both are ridiculous statements.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#34

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?

[deleted]

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#35

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. I am not saying there is anything wrong with American Democrats but if you look at actual policies they would be labeled centre right anywhere else in the world. As an American friend once put it to me "Americans believe luck is made, so social h…

This used to be true, while it's hard to quantify it doesn't really seem to be true anymore.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#36
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

Is there evidence for this claim?

The pervasive testimony from local law enforcement that the DA's office won't even respond about prosecuting most offenses. Not just minor offenses -- theft, burglaries, assault and at least one manslaughter/homicide case.

The second hand testimony from residents and business owners saying the police are telling them not to expect them to be able to prosecute anyone.

But there's also the evidence of what Boudin openly said and advocated. Sometimes the message and the stated intent are worth replacing regardless of how effective they've been at their goals.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#37
I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city government tend not to be in big cities, they are more often in suburbs and small towns, which don't have the same kind of homeless problem, and thus don't have the same kinds of challenges projecting an image of being a safe, lawful community.

I'm sure it's a solvable problem for Democrats, but first they have to resolve to address it, rather than just wishing that voters didn't feel this way.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#38
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

Is there evidence for this claim?

It's not so much "as a result of the DA's policies" in particular (although I don't doubt this contributes), but all over the country discretionary policing has fallen as a result of pressure from anti-policing activists on politicians and police departments. The result is that crime overall rises, but "lesser" crimes which are more likely to fall under the rubric of "discretionary" appear to fall because the police are effectively prohibited from looking for them. However, crimes which aren't discretionary such as homicides (in other words, police can't overlook homicides) are rising sharply. This has shown up in some of the "Ferguson effect" literature (and I suspect it will also show up in the "Minneapolis effect" literature once criminologists compile and process the data), but I don't have a link handy at the moment.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#39

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?

facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism

national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat).

The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of overlap and have often strong fascist tendencies.

And sure California might be one of the US states better of. Tbh. especially with the last statement I was more thinking about some other US states.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

"but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree" ??

Drag queen story hour????

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