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Many software companies are a joke

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Re: Many software companies are a joke

#101

Post by [deleted] »

2143 wrote: post #95
ethbr0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

[Tangent] > And this isn't to say that some companies aren't pathologically incapable of delivering software... "isn't", "aren't", "incapable" Three back-to-back negatives have me confused. Somewhat mysteriously, I (think I) understand what it means when I read it quickly, but if I pause to think I get confused. English isn't my first language :) Update: Thanks for editing to make it clearer!

[deleted]

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#102

Post by andersonmvd »

batiudrami wrote: post #7

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Focusing on the author instead of the discussing the topic really misses the point imho. We don't get good discussions from it. The point is the amount of inefficiences in big corps and how people react to it. This post has so many upvotes for a reason.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#103

Post by rob_c »

batiudrami wrote: post #7

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Unfortunately what you have just said is given as a shining example of why some coders hate other coders. If they're not going to contribute to core work, then add "perceived value" like docuemntation which a good manager should be allocating people to rather than wasting time in more meetings.

There is no real excuse why when you're paid to code you're not doing that 4-5hours a day at least 5 days a week. Career development is one thing, but there are 7 working hours between 9-5 so if someone wanted to work on that they have a full 10-15hrs a week excluding a break for lunch. Lets take out 5hrs of meetings a week which is still likely too much to be productive and we're down to: ~10hr for personal growth, ~5hr for lunches, ~5hr of meetings to keep people up to date and 20hr of actual work every week out of every employee.

Some meetings are important. Most are not. This is another common problem that middle-management gets into. Constant cracking of the whip and arguing-about/discussing small details is just toxic to productivity. (Small here being what style/color/toolkit. Not knocking up a prototype and pivoting when needed based on strategy and risk analysis performed at the start of a good project).

Most "divergences" or decisions can be worked out through a SWAT analysis (yes I'm quoting Scilicon valley), or by managers making decisions and pissing someone off some of the time rather than holding everyone back all of the time.

I've worked for managers with both management styles and I can guarantee the boss that makes a decision (even if it's wrong) is better than the boss that holds 5 meetings on the topic, because often you'll either get over it and move on, or prove it's wrong by the 2nd/3rd meeting and will still be ahead of the 5-meeting nod-fest.

This mantra of hire more bad coders or letting talented coders go to waste because they're not being allowed to do their jobs is adding to a huge bubble in the sector and frankly, on the precipice of a major recession I think people in such companies should be starting to panic.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#104

Post by albertTJames »

The guy made "only ennemies" in big companies. Not sure he'd be the most unbiased person to comment on the quality of tech jobs or somebody who can comment on healthy coworker relations.

When the same pattern keeps happening to you wherever you work, its not them, its you. That you had a few good positions in healthy teams does not make you a healthy coworker, the culture was probably just too strong and healthy for you to mess it up.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#105

Post by ethbr0 »

2143 wrote: post #95
ethbr0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

[Tangent] > And this isn't to say that some companies aren't pathologically incapable of delivering software... "isn't", "aren't", "incapable" Three back-to-back negatives have me confused. Somewhat mysteriously, I (think I) understand what it means when I read it quickly, but if I pause to think I get confused. English isn't my first language :) Update: Thanks for editing to make it clearer!

Point. Edited and hopefully clearer. I try to keep non-first language readers in mind, but vernacular crept in before a second cup of coffee.

IMHO, "this isn't to say" is a common expression in English, so I didn't register it as a negative. But you're absolutely correct.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#106

Post by pyb »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #6

The sad thing is that it’s a joke that many people don’t seem to be in on. You get all these defenders coming out of the woodwork when people wonder what the hell all the programmers at say, Twitter, are doing. Supposedly you puny mind can’t comprehend the challenges of developing a website “at scale” The real answer is, almost nothing. People are being paid very high salaries to do nothing.

This ongoing debate on productivity at small startups vs large companies will never be resolved by argumentation. But as we can see from this thread, corporate engineers overwhelmingly outnumber early-stage startup engineers. Therefore, they tend to "win" the debate by being louder.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#107

Post by rob_c »

ethbr0 wrote: post #38
batiudrami wrote: post #7

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

Was he hired as a product liaison with corporate to attend meetings with clients. No. He was likely hired as a developer. Most of this should appear as requirements via his inbox not be meetings he attends unless there is a screaming problem with a request.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#108

Post by unlikelymordant »

2143 wrote: post #95
ethbr0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

[Tangent] > And this isn't to say that some companies aren't pathologically incapable of delivering software... "isn't", "aren't", "incapable" Three back-to-back negatives have me confused. Somewhat mysteriously, I (think I) understand what it means when I read it quickly, but if I pause to think I get confused. English isn't my first language :) Update: Thanks for editing to make it clearer!

Negatives cancel, so I think you cancel the first 2 and get "this is to say that some companies are pathologically incapable of delivering software", which reads a bit nicer

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#109

Post by danielvaughn »

ethbr0 wrote: post #38
batiudrami wrote: post #7

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

A few days ago, I made a comment about good developers knowing how to think of their work from the business’s perspective. One guy responded by saying his only job is to write code and he doesn’t care about anything else. I just can’t imagine coming to that perspective, even if I understand the desire to have minimal responsibility.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#110

Post by bayindirh »

ethbr0 wrote: post #38
batiudrami wrote: post #7

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

As a developer (and sysadmin), I want to write less and less code as time passes. It's not I don't enjoy coding, on the contrary.

However, I understand that a project is documentation and future planning, too. So, I want to build an artifact complete with its documentation, which can be sustainably moved forward by anyone other than me.

If I don't document what I've coded, then the joy project becomes a weight on me, and prevents me from moving to new, bigger things. Also, I can show the whole shebang as "I made dis!", and anybody can have an idea what the project is all about.

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