Live data from Hacker News

Many software companies are a joke

liou28335.medium.com

91–100 of 377 posts

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#91
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And still, working in company that does not document what the system does, it sux massively more. Because end result is that no one knows how to use our own software. You dont know what it is supposed to do, so it is impossible to keep that stuff working. It takes ridiculous amount of time to configure anything or reproduce bugs, because you need multiple calls to find the one person who barely remembers. Also agile…

No-one ever suggested not to document! The comment I replied to says " inappropriate amount of documentation", the Agile Manifesto says " comprehensive documentation". That's the problem. Months, if not years, spent on pages after pages of comprehensive documentation that does not add any value and is obsolete by the time you start writing actual code. Lastly, the age of something is not a relevant criterion. Not muc…

> That's the problem. Months, if not years, spent on pages after pages of comprehensive documentation that does not add any value and is obsolete by the time you start writing actual code.

This picture is not any real company I ever worked in or real company I heard of from friends. Literally, not even before agile manifesto.

> Not much has actually changed over the last 20 years. What has changed is the explosion of web-related software, which is actually the best suited for ideas behind Agile.

That is not actually true, really. A lot did changed.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#92
Dear author, you're one of those people who are capable of more and need to take an unfortunate step back.

Given there are so many people who flocked and are still flocking to IT based programming jobs because of the promise that "one day you will be the next " level push.

I've met people who burn themselves out trying to write hundreds of lines of good code in a day. I've had new colleagues come in, publically slate my code, only to have to retract their comments in private several months later once they actually understood what it's doing.

The author is probably one of the types, that left as seniour architect could have build something better with people around him adding polish and other "perceived value" to a customer. (Perceived value in this case being everything from corporate branding to translations to internal tooling).

Most "complex" problems from the non-IT world don't need a full stack all singing all dancing latest npm, all the RAM in the world and a full Oracle site lisence. Most could be solved by some talented coders (3 or 4 max) doing the grunt of the work with others around them adding perceived value to allow the company to add a zero to the net value of the product, and it could be deployed in-house on a 2nd hand server with redundancy built for <$30k for it's whole lifetime. And that's assuming it's not just an app to sell that requires no hosting.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#93
These were not “software companies”. Such companies sell software. These were “normal” companies dabbling about automating processes and “being modern”. If software isn’t what keeps the lights on, it’s just a playground or a cost centre.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#94
post #38

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

Excellent comment, just wanted to add to this:

> Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code.

that it should also bring money, or enough money, to be more precise.

It may sound strange but lots of products that fall on your very on-point definition fail to bring enough money in order to keep the lights on (and then some), this is a point that gets lost on many software developers. For context, I've been a paid programmer for 15+ years now, mostly in small companies, maybe as part of bigger companies/projects the view is a little different and "bringing in money" is not seen as that important for the developers.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#95
post #38

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

Author is every software engineer I hate to work with. One who thinks that code is the only truly important part of a project. It's not. "Delivering a product that solves end user needs and is as maintainable and reliable as possible" is the only truly important thing, and only some of that is code. Meetings generally aren't for developers. They're to keep everyone else involved with the project sync'd up. Do I and e…

[Tangent]

> And this isn't to say that some companies aren't pathologically incapable of delivering software...

"isn't", "aren't", "incapable"

Three back-to-back negatives have me confused. Somewhat mysteriously, I (think I) understand what it means when I read it quickly, but if I pause to think I get confused. English isn't my first language :)

Update: Thanks for editing to make it clearer!

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#96
Another take on it is that in a big company, even incredibly mundane and boring software can scale to a level that is stupendously valuable once it goes into production. Hence the company can completely afford to have an entire team working away writing 3 lines of useful code a day. It is way more important that the code is created in a way that can mesh with the rest of the giant corporate behemoth (so yeah, documentation, meetings, etc etc) than it is that it is done fast.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#97
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical/non-physical distinction might be a bit of a red herring, as this seems more a differentiation between repetitive and non-repetitive work. I.e. assembly line worker vs carpenter I'd hazard most people tend to dislike repetitive work, if they have the choice.

Yes, although repetitive physical (exertive) work is a bit less soul destroying if only because it makes you too tired to think about it too much.

As someone who has dug ditches in Georgia clay, agreed.

Although I guess even the most repetitive physical task still has infinite physical fidelity, if you look for it. E.g. digging a hole in the same place 50 times vs writing the same code 50 times.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#98
post #49

I tend to think most of engineering is rather mundane but potentially very rewarding. I hate meetings and overly complicated project coordination just as much the next person but there is also danger in wanting to do ‘cool stuff’ - imagine a dentist who is passionate about pulling teeth out. A project that I quite enjoyed involved months of investigation work, finally solved by tweaking a single software parameter th…

> imagine a dentist who is passionate about pulling teeth out That's a great metaphor for code-before-you-know developers. > finally solved by tweaking a single software parameter that dictated how far a release mechanism moved I think of this type of work as programming by other means. The problem couldn't have been "fixed" without all the discovery meetings and understanding. The "fix" couldn't have made it to prod…

> Imagine a dentist who is passionate about pulling teeth out ... That's a great metaphor for code-before-you-know developers.

A key difference between a big decision and a small decision is what it's like to change your decision afterwards.

I don't think we can compare reverting a pulled tooth vs 2 hours of programming the "wrong" thing.

In the programming case, you may have went down a rabbit hole that wasn't correct but at least now you're 1 step closer to the right solution. You probably learned something and the business can write that off as R&D.

In the pulled tooth case, well, I'm not sure I want to Google that haha. Is it possible to fully replant a pulled tooth in a way where it's 100% healthy and you'd never notice it was pulled? I know there's implants but I mean the real natural tooth, complete with its root. I'm sure the process in any case would not be fun for the person who needs the work done.

You could classify one of these as a small decision and the other one as large.

I still think planning and understanding the problem before coding most things is a very good idea btw, but I would feel way more comfortable experimenting with code in short periods of time vs experimenting in a dental chair / operating room.

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#99

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

[deleted]

Re: Many software companies are a joke

#100

Astonishing to me that someone with 20 years' experience in any industry could have so little perspective. Obviously there are inefficiencies with big companies, but complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management? The writing is smug and shows no self awareness - it seems to me that the author cannot recognise that there may be other priorities than exactly what is in front of them and the…

> complaining about needing to do documentation, or basic project management?

Some engineers are allergic to teamwork. I deal with coworkers with a similar attitude on a daily basis.

The most frustrating aspect of it is that companies are usually bad at acknowledging someone is a bad fit for a project or a team, even when they are shown solid evidence.

A big part of it has to do with how broken the interviewing process is - the focus at the moment is almost entirely on coding exercises and ignore tasks that many developers perceive as boring but can be crucial, such as writing documentation. It leads to mixed results where you end up hiring some engineers with T-shaped skills along with absolute code monkeys.

Post reply on HN