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Go Ahead, Sell My Data

kevinjcurtin.com

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Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#101

Post by gldalmaso »

etha wrote: post #83
gldalmaso wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I sign up to a video store and suddenly some guys are watching inside my windows all the time to check whichever videos I might enjoy more, no, that would not be ok with me. It's harmful because it's abusive. Next year they will want more revenue, so how deeper will they go for that, will they break my windows open and storm the house? I know it's an exageration, but it ilustrates my point.

I see this as something that could potentially lead to abuse, but I don't see how it is abusive by itself, and I don't agree with trying to limit technology because it could potentially be abused unless there's a clear case that the danger of such abuse outweighs the potential benefits. Like the writer of the original article, I haven't seen anyone make that case - it's mostly just people saying "but privacy!" In you…

When the service I'm using does not clearly state what info they are using and how, than that's not really being public is it, it's just me having my info appropriated by technology without my knowledge.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#102

Post by etha »

pingswept wrote: post #94
etha wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, no. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding facebook's tracking system, but I don't think your browser history is being captured here. You are viewing pages that have a facebook widget on them, and if you have a facebook cookie that says "pingswept", this tells facebook that pingswept visited a page with a specific widget on it (and thus, which page). Facebook is not taking anything from you that you ar…

I believe you have explained the mechanics of the system correctly. As to who is doing the deception, I think you're right that (in the example we're discussing) cnn.com is being deceptive. That's a good point; I hadn't really considered the complicity of the partner sites. But in the end, Facebook is producing widgets, building a system to receive data from those widgets, and working with their partners to deploy th…

This may not be a realistic expectation now, but I think that as the general population becomes more technologically literate, for the average person, the presence of such a button should indicate "this website has some kind of relationship with facebook/reddit/google - if I care about what data they are sharing, I should probably check their privacy policy." And I think that 99% of people won't care. My admittedly idealistic belief is that the solution to this "controversy" is for everyone to recognize that we shouldn't try to apply pre-internet expectations and beliefs about privacy to the modern world.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#103

Post by etha »

gldalmaso wrote: post #101
etha wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as something that could potentially lead to abuse, but I don't see how it is abusive by itself, and I don't agree with trying to limit technology because it could potentially be abused unless there's a clear case that the danger of such abuse outweighs the potential benefits. Like the writer of the original article, I haven't seen anyone make that case - it's mostly just people saying "but privacy!" In you…

When the service I'm using does not clearly state what info they are using and how, than that's not really being public is it, it's just me having my info appropriated by technology without my knowledge.

No, that's where the metaphor breaks down. I don't think there's a good equivalent of "public" in the facebook tracking situation. Instead, I would say that you are on someone else's virtual property, and that they are perfectly within their rights to watch and record whatever you do there and share that information with whoever they like.

It does happen without the knowledge of many people today, and the surprise when they find out what's really going on has led to a lot of backlash, but the solution to that is to educate people better about technology and what it can do, not to limit technology so that it can only do things the average person can conceive of.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#104

Post by pingswept »

etha wrote: post #102
pingswept wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you have explained the mechanics of the system correctly. As to who is doing the deception, I think you're right that (in the example we're discussing) cnn.com is being deceptive. That's a good point; I hadn't really considered the complicity of the partner sites. But in the end, Facebook is producing widgets, building a system to receive data from those widgets, and working with their partners to deploy th…

This may not be a realistic expectation now, but I think that as the general population becomes more technologically literate, for the average person, the presence of such a button should indicate "this website has some kind of relationship with facebook/reddit/google - if I care about what data they are sharing, I should probably check their privacy policy." And I think that 99% of people won't care. My admittedly i…

That doesn't seem crazy to me as an expectation for the distant future. Right now, I'd estimate that 95% of Facebook users would be at least irritated if they knew the full extent of the data that Facebook collects. I wouldn't be surprised if that dropped down to 25% 50 years in the future (assuming some new Facebook-like entity that pulls similar bullshit then).

The good news for me is that I'll probably be dead by then, or at least most of my friends will be, so Facebook will be of no interest to me.

I'm curious about why you describe your belief as idealistic. Specifically, what is ideal, or even good, about Facebook logging a subset of my browsing history? I understand it's potentially profitable for them and their partners, but that's not a benefit to me.

My idealistic view, which is substantially in conflict with yours, I think, would be that Facebook just serve me targeted ads and forget about the rest of it. Why would your ideal future be better? (I'm assuming you don't work for Facebook or one of their partners.)

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#105

Post by pothibo »

cbs wrote: post #79
pothibo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are obviously missing the point but let me humor you: When you access a bank you are publicly trading the information between you and the bank. That means that if somebody on your LAN sniff your cookies (and SSL wouldn't be used) you could use their account on their bank website. So yeah, bank info is public as well. You cannot use the internet and expect things to be completely private like you can't go in a bar…

That means that if somebody on your LAN sniff your cookies (and SSL wouldn't be used) you could use their account on their bank website. But I use SSL when I connect to facebook. And its not the data facebook collects as it files over the wire that is being called into question here, it is the actions of Facebook once they have the data. The point the parent post was driving at is: Is it OK for the bank to do anythin…

And my answer to that question is, if you give information about yourself to any service you have to expect them to do something eventually with it. Even if it's yours, it becomes theirs as well as soon as you upload it to the 3rd party.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#106

Post by gldalmaso »

etha wrote: post #103
gldalmaso wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the service I'm using does not clearly state what info they are using and how, than that's not really being public is it, it's just me having my info appropriated by technology without my knowledge.

No, that's where the metaphor breaks down. I don't think there's a good equivalent of "public" in the facebook tracking situation. Instead, I would say that you are on someone else's virtual property, and that they are perfectly within their rights to watch and record whatever you do there and share that information with whoever they like. It does happen without the knowledge of many people today, and the surprise wh…

I think I can see what you say about virtual property, even though I don't agree that it should all be logged, I agree that it would be public, something that any other user himself could track. So if they only see my activity within that property, than that's one thing, but once they get into my browser and gather information from it, than I think the boundary is oversteped, and they are now in my own property (my browser) and searching through my stuff.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#107

Post by gujk »

nl wrote: post #100
gnaffle wrote: post #34

I guess the problem isn't targeted advertising per se. It's that you don't know what your personal information will be used for in the future. Maybe it will give you better, more targeted advertising. Maybe it will be used to deny you an insurance policy or be sold to a recruiting firm that will reject your job application. I guess Facebooks terms don't allow that, but those terms can change at any time. Maybe not ne…

There is a very important distinction between the Nazi Germany example and Facebook selling your data. In the Nazi Germany example, it was a government entity that was using the information. In that case no amount of privacy controls will protect you - if the information is available they can use the law to retrieve it. Even if Jews didn't have their religion listed on their passport, a government can retrieve that i…

Why are you downplaying "minimizes friction"?

Friction is the only shield we have ever had to protect against invasion of privacy.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#108

Post by gujk »

webjprgm wrote: post #88
lukeschlather wrote: post #64

>While it is true that "we pay with our data" for many of the free (as in no monetary cost) social networks we use, what is the alternative? People don't want to pay money for these types of services and this is a business model that allows companies to operate and thrive while providing a valuable service to their users. That strikes me as a pretty weakly supported argument. Facebook is in a position where they coul…

That would be extortion unless they allow you to completely delete an account and opt-out (or better yet, require opt-in) of data collection. Because if not, then the only way to hide your data from the public would be to pay FB.

The phone company has been blackmailing the public with its White Pages for decades. Unlisting a number costs money.

Nothing new under the sun, just bigger and worse.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#109

Post by gujk »

etha wrote: post #84
sausax82 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An extreme example, your online history can be presented in court as an evidence against you.

That's not an argument against keeping that history. It could just as well be presented in court as evidence for me, or be presented as evidence against people I don't like. I'm in favor of the legal system having better evidence that they can use to reach more correct verdicts.

Finding evidence "against people you don't like" is exactly the problem privacy intends to solve.

I never want to meet you, if you see nothing wrong with snooping around my life and sharing all my secrets with everyone.

Re: Go Ahead, Sell My Data

#110

Post by gujk »

gldalmaso wrote: post #73
kcurtin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with being both? To me it seems like a mutually beneficial relationship. I am getting tremendous value from using their site to interact with and stay connected with friends. They are using my data to make money by serving me unobtrusive ads that don't really negatively impact my user experience. I do think that being more upfront and more transparent would be a good thing, there are alot of misconcepti…

> by serving me unobtrusive ads that don't really negatively impact my user experience I'm not a heavy Facebook user, but what you said certainly does not apply to google. What was once unobtrusive ads now are just ads cleverly disguised as search results in a very faint slightly different background-color box. They wanna pass the ads down as search results and that certainly impacts user experience. These guys are w…

In theory, you're complaint is valid. In practice, my browser is quite capable of detecting those ads and dispatching them according to my wishes.
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