U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#101

Post by plater » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #54

I hate to be that guy, but the only reliable way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions is to drastically reduce emissions. Switching to biofuel doesn't fix climate change because biofuel is still terrible. Switching to electric cars doesn't fix climate change because electric power is still terrible (not to mention all the damage from lithium mining, manufacturing and battery replacements). The only solution is to make…

Spot on.

By reducing the size and weight of the cars we use gives more than relying on magic new innovations. We use 2000kg cars to drive around a If we with the snap of a finger replaced all the coal and oil and gas we use with wind and solar power plants I'm not convinced that would be much better. Not maybe worse, but not better.

Wind mills everywhere, solar plants covering huge areas of land and a lot of metals and energy needed to construct all that. It just moves the problem around.

A small gasoline/diesel car is better than a big electric car. Or why not a small electric car such as this Citroen Ami or Zbee from Clean Motion:

https://www.citroen.fr/ami Or https://cleanmotion.se

Saving and reducing quickly now gives more than hoping for the new fancy technology being in place in 10, 20 or 3 years from now.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#102

Post by fennecfoxen » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #45

spiderfarmer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The romantic view people have of peasant farms is ruining all discourse about agriculture. I blame the books people read to toddlers. Peasant farms were labor intensive, disease ridden, high risk, low reward businesses that shortened lives and ruined families. But somehow for a lot of people this episode in the history of farming is seen as the optimal blueprint for sustainable farming. They ignore the fact that all…

Well a lot of conventional farms that are hyperoptimized barely make enough money to get by. It is quite weird how we can't maintain something as basic as food security with a market based economy.

> It is quite weird how we can't maintain something as basic as food security with a market based economy

We can't? Where's the famine? News to me. Last I checked we still have way more food than we know what to do with (massive worldwide fertilizer shortages and inflation notwithstanding).

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#103

Post by evancoop » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

How many products are subsidized on one and and regulated on the other? Corn is subsidized in production, but then when those subsidies yield health-hindering quantities of cheap sweetener (corn syrup), we attempt to regulate its application and consumption.

Now, we'll subsidize growth again, but then regulate the greenhouse emissions on the other.

It is one thing for government regulation to address externalities (good). It is another to address externalities that government helped create in the first place!

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#104

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #93

giantg2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was that one on Netflix that sold organic specialty produce to restaurants in Chicago? I thought that one was profitable without any sort of assistance. Either way, we have several examples of local "peasant" farms, some organic, that do well.

They got a lot of exposure, even before Netflix. Now their model is to milk the brand they built. That's not traditional farming, that's marketing wrapped in farming.

Yeah, but if I remember correctly, actual farm operations were profitable, right? The marketing is just extra, or what it evolved into.

Don't get me wrong - small farms are a lot of work. For the most part, at least one member of the family has to have an outside job with benefits just due to healthcare costs. But it can make some money.

I hope to have a small farm as a "retirement" plan. It would mostly be an apiary for the commercial portion, maybe with some log and block grown mushrooms. Then the rest would likely be for personal use. Obviously the major costs like the initial land and health insurance would come from savings, so it would be mostly supplemental income to an already solid retirement plan. I don't think it will happen though.

I assume the biggest draw is the lifestyle ideals. It seems a common dream on this community. Maybe because we're tired of building some intangible thing or some app that nobody really needs, and want to have a physical job with meaningful produce.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#105

Post by titzer » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

bradknowles wrote: post #8

consp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3$/gallon sounds so cheap to me. I'm paying almost 2.5$/liter. I'm pretty sure that will reduce emissions massively more than any change in fuel composition wherever the fuel comes from.

That’s European-style taxes for you. Sadly. You get a lot of benefits from European-style government, like socialized medicine. But then you also have to pay those taxes.

Europe and the rest of the world is paying something closer to the true cost of using fossil fuels. Although, with compounding climate change, prices are not keeping up. They are, in effect, subsidizing North America and China's addiction to cheap fossil fuels, which are cheap because externalities are not priced in, and are additionally subsidized by NA governments.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#106

Post by admax88qqq » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

AniseAbyss wrote: post #80

njarboe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government. [1] https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2] https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-…

I always thought the GOP hates welfare programs...

It's not welfare it's a subsidy. And it's okay because it's for people we like, rural farmers who vote GOP, rather than people we don't like, inner city populations who vote Democrat.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#107

Post by freeqaz » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #89

giantg2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are also secondary effects as subsidizing farm insurance etc, keeps incompetent farmers in business." Any data to back that up? If you're incompetent and your crops repeatedly, then you're not going to be reimbursed enough to make it. "It’s vastly more efficient to build up a long term storage of surplus say 2 years of corn per American stored at -40C which should last ~100 years." Any data to back this up? Th…

> incompetence It’s not that people are completely incompetent it’s that some people are better at getting subsidies vs growing food. Essentially subsidies add a parallel skill set which becomes valuable but reduces the impact of being an inefficient farmer. I don’t have hard data, but have been told about people who are better at one side or the other. > Any data to back this up. The freezing thing was actually from…

Re: Freezers, yeah, I agree with this. Volume to surface area doesn't scale linearly[0], so you can build something like a giant sphere or cylinder and lose a relatively small amount of energy.

Commercial freezers are also frequently built with vacuum-insulated panels[1] which have very low thermal conductivity.

It's not crazy to build something very large, like a grain silo, to hold dried grain at a low temperature. That seems fairly plausible as a way to reliably "turn off" subsidies over time.

It sort of reminds me of the strategic oil reserve[2] in the US. Similar idea (boring holes in the earth cheaply via using water to etch into giant salt deposits)

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-area-to-volume_ratio

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(U...

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#108

Post by refurb » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

patch_collector wrote: post #73

jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

Corn in the US is mostly used for harmful purposes. It's used for producing fodder for intensive cattle farming (which of course produces lots of CO2). It's used for biofuel production, which as the article observes releases more CO2 than that it saves. And it's used for producing corn syrup which is an ingredient that nobody needs in their diet. The rest, which would be usage for e.g. corn bread or other staples of…

A few years back, I caught a ride with a cattle rancher while hitchhiking across South Dakota. We stopped by another rancher's property to give him an estimate of how his cows would sell at market. While we were there, we got to talking about how he'd pulled the cows off of one of his fields, and planted corn instead. Thanks to subsidies, it was more profitable to do that, even though herding cattle is really what he…

So your story is farmer stops doing activity A and does activity B because it makes more money?

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#109

Post by IgorPartola » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #91

njarboe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa has the first primary every year in the US[1]. Iowa produces more corn than any state[2] while being 32nd in population. Corn is very important to people in Iowa and as long as the first two facts remain the same, corn will continue to be highly subsidized and supported in other ways by the US government. [1] https://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2024-primary-sche... [2] https://www.cropprophet.com/us-corn-…

Why doesn’t another state move its primary up? It seems like an easy way to get more influence?

The correct solution is to adopt approval voting and not have primaries at all.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline

#110

Post by dahfizz » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #104

spiderfarmer wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They got a lot of exposure, even before Netflix. Now their model is to milk the brand they built. That's not traditional farming, that's marketing wrapped in farming.

Yeah, but if I remember correctly, actual farm operations were profitable, right? The marketing is just extra, or what it evolved into. Don't get me wrong - small farms are a lot of work. For the most part, at least one member of the family has to have an outside job with benefits just due to healthcare costs. But it can make some money. I hope to have a small farm as a "retirement" plan. It would mostly be an apiary…

> I assume the biggest draw is the lifestyle ideals.

A lot of people who have never physically worked a day in their life like the idea of hard labor. After a week of hard labor, they would decide to take up woodworking instead.