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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#101

Post by ComodoHacker »

awb wrote: post #61
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions True, but it’s possible to ask questions that sway public opinion. Look at all the “studies” tobacco companies paid for. Or the racist scientific theories that attempted to justify slavery. If you’re asking questions about a lab leak out of genuine scientific interest, that’s perfectly legitimate. But if you’re as…

There always will be someone trying to win political points from scientific questions asked by others. It's not a reason not to ask.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#102

Post by wombatpm »

theplumber wrote: post #25
dane-pgp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

>> I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits You forget the politics. CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. I'm pretty sure they would rather see the country burning than admitting guilt and incompetence. You can see that kind of selfish behaviour at most of the leaders(I would dare to say even in recent…

You may not be able to replace the people at the top, but if a city in China is failing to to take active steps to contain an outbreak, you can bet that those local leaders will be replaced by the CCP.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#103

Post by torstenvl »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

You seem very convinced of your position. But there's a whole world of options in between "unactionable" and "invade China."

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#104

Post by [deleted] »

sudosysgen wrote: post #92
perihelions wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That PhD virologist comes off as not credible at all, as part of their response is to deny the entire possibility of lab leaks in general . Their argument is that industrial accidents are simply caused by incompetence or lack of funding, and WIV is well-funded and run by competent people: therefore, bad things simply cannot happen . Their attitude is fundamentally unserious. https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/…

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#105

Post by duxup »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

> Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial.

Assuming that is true.

Are you asking what China would have done with the result of researching COVID?

Same thing anyone does with research?

Or are you asking what we do with the information as to why something bad happened?

Same things / reasons we want to know why something bad happened?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#106

Post by awb »

sudosysgen wrote: post #22
xqcgrek2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - an animal host or reservoir is found. It's unusual after 2 years none has been found.

There are many animal hosts or reservoirs. The issue is that it's not obvious wether they got it from or gave it to humans. You really need the most direct ancestor virus.

A quick reminder of what scientists said in early 2020:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/how-did-the-co...

> “we really don’t know” how accurate the origin story is, she says: “There’s some sort of connection [to the Wuhan market] and there were people exposed to the market that were infected.”

> Baker says what is “very likely” is that the virus originated in a bat. “It’s a likely scenario but we will never know. The market was cleaned up quite quickly. We can only speculate.”

> “These wet markets have been identified as an issue because you do have species interacting,” she says. “It’s an opportunity to highlight the dangers of them and an opportunity to clamp down on them.”

> Turner adds: “We’ve found the ancestors of the virus, but having broader knowledge of the coronavirus in other species might give us a hint about the evolution of this thing and how it jumped.”

There has been other wet market origin stories as well, so I think absent other evidence it seemed like the Occam’s razor answer.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#107

Post by suifbwish »

systemvoltage wrote: post #20
perihelions wrote: post #6

> "Professor Andrew Rambaut, from the University of Edinburgh, also said that furin cleavage site “strikes me as unusual”." > "He added: “I think the only people with sufficient information or access to samples to address it would be the teams working in Wuhan.”" This pair of quotes has a completely different meaning from the original quote it sliced up: > "I am also agnostic on this – I do not have any experience of…

The article shouldn’t have quote this person in the first place - there are plenty of serious investigations into the lab leak theory from reputable virologists. I recommend Alina Chan’s new book: Viral. This clarification also masquerades as a clarification of something important. This person quoted by the tabloid is irrelevant here. In fact this article does more damage to the credibility of lab theory than otherwi…

Facts are facts. The fact is in 2019 there were 39,397 wet markets in China. How many virology labs were there in China handling Corona-viruses? TWO. One of which was TWO BLOCKS from where the wet market from where the original Covid-19 virus which started the pandemic has been traced to.

One might be forgiven for being curious as to the likelihood of the virus emerging from this particular wet market as opposed to all others.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#108

Post by andreilys »

sudosysgen wrote: post #92
perihelions wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That PhD virologist comes off as not credible at all, as part of their response is to deny the entire possibility of lab leaks in general . Their argument is that industrial accidents are simply caused by incompetence or lack of funding, and WIV is well-funded and run by competent people: therefore, bad things simply cannot happen . Their attitude is fundamentally unserious. https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/…

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason.

Just because they are “leaders in the field of safety” doesn’t mean that a lab leak is impossible, just unlikely.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#110

Post by andreilys »

sudosysgen wrote: post #82
xqcgrek2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snopes and Reddit are not credible.

The source isn't Reddit, it's a published virologist, and he himself cites over a hundred academic sources. Reddit is the medium.

I am very confident that SARS-CoV-2 has no connection to the Wuhan Institute of Virology or any other laboratory. Not genetic engineering, not intentional evolution, not an accidental release. The most plausible scenario, by a landslide, is that SARS-CoV-2 jumped from a bat (or other species) into a human, in the wild.

A year later and we are yet to see a zoonotic link, but of course it’s the “most plausible scenario”.

The reality is that we will likely never know because it’s not in chinas best interest to allow any real investigation into this.

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