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UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

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Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#101

Post by joannanewsom »

olliej wrote: post #69

Is this clunky? Yes. Is there a better way of doing it? Maybe. Is it an explicitly biased policy? Yes. However, correcting a biased system requires that there is a period with enforced change bias to correct the existing bias. This is because there are many ways previous explicitly biased policies entrench that bias even if the current environment is no longer explicitly biased. Even if we were to assume that everyon…

How do you determine which ethnic groups have been historically disadvantaged and to what extent need correction?

Black: Yes

Native American: ?

Afghan: ?

Puerto Rican: ?

Hawaiian: ?

Japanese: ?

Jewish: ?

White: No

Or do you simply go until the diversity of the position/company matches the diversity of the general population?

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#102

Post by zomglings »

cdot2 wrote: post #99
zomglings wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked in academia as a minority. To do so is to face constant exposure to discrimination on almost every front. Honestly, I believe the entire concept of higher education needs a radical change and that projects like Khan Academy will lead the way. Within the context of academia, though, I don't have any particular problem with small changes applied at a national level to try and address the systemic discrimi…

I dont think discrimination solves discrimination

What do you think solves discrimination?

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#103

Post by jollybean »

beaconstudios wrote: post #95
jollybean wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The idea of objective metrics for social categories falls apart under the slightest scrutiny" This is definitely false, even from the most socially progressive perspective. That some categories are not perfectly defined, that we don't always agree, that some are 'self-defined', and that definitions can overlap - does not mean that those objective definitions do not exist. This "There is no Black or White because the…

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Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#104

Post by [deleted] »

civilized wrote: post #3

Just to be clear, they seem to be only excluding able-bodied cisgender white men. Which is not to say it's a great policy, but in the interests of precision: > In accordance with UBC’s CRC Equity, Diversity, & Inclusion Action Plan, and pursuant to Section 42 of the BC Human Rights code, the selection will be restricted to members of the following designated groups: persons with disabilities, Indigenous Peoples, wome…

[deleted]

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#106

Post by alchemism »

david38 wrote: post #92
alchemism wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a biological woman that enjoys hunting? Two-Spirit. Are you a biological man that enjoys maintaining a household? Two-Spirit. It is an indigenous cultural construct for allowing variation in gender constructs.

So tomboys get special treatment?

The opposite, if you think about it for a minute… (Traditionally)

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#107

Post by seanmcdirmid »

kazinator wrote: post #96
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can this position go to a person of East Asian descent? Sure, women can apply and get the role, I'm almost certain an east (or maybe south?) asian female will get this position given the demographics of talent available in that field.

Of course, I'm referring to a person who is not eligible in the other minority categories; someone who can only play the race card. I do not intend to pose a puzzle question in which a logical short-cut provides a correct answer based on nothing but the syntax of the question and trivial surrounding information.

The question was "Can this position go to someone of East Asian descent?" and the answer is "yes, it most probably will." I'm guessing you meant "heterosexual male of East Asian descent"? Because, I'm guessing that category is excluded along with "white heterosexual males."

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#108

Post by yucky »

thirtyseven wrote: post #21
Khaine wrote: post #6

How is this not discrimination of protected classes, and therefore illegal?

Because this is in Canada, where they aren't bound by US Supreme Court decisions? Also I don't think straight white cis-male is a protected class in any case.

>I don't think straight white cis-male is a protected class in any case

FYI, in the case of protected classes, it covers all people. For instance, if race is a protected class, that doesn't apply to some races, it applies to race in general. In other words, you can't discriminate based on race, regardless of the race being discriminated against.

That's how it works in the US, and I know this is Canada but your comment seemed to imply protected class was something else "in any case".

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#109

Post by andreskytt »

causality0 wrote: post #47
steeleduncan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Two-spirit" is a new one on me In that case, perhaps google it rather than make glib remarks about it?

Two Spirit is considered a contemporary, umbrella term that is specific to the Indigenous LGBT2QQIA (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, Two Spirit, queer, questioning, intersexual, asexual) community. Frankly I'm not sure whether to laugh at the idea a gender identity can be limited to a specific ethnicity or to condemn it as inherently racist. This is entirely too meta.

The entire concept of talking about gender being “fluid” while proceeding to divide it into an increasingly complex framework of discrete classes is very meta. People are more complex than that, let them be!

I do get that young people seek to gain a labeled identity (mine was “metalhead”) but that does not mean the rest of the society should play along. This creates a dangerous feedback loop: the more acceptable the complex set of identity drawers gets, the more difficult it is for a person to validate their inherent feeing of being different. Thus, through pain they invent new boxes, these get picked up and normalized globally making it harder for the next guy to answer “I’m different than any of this, who am I?” There’s a balance to the tension of discovering one’s identity. Making it too easy will cause suffering as will making it unnecessarily hard.

Re: UBC bans non-minority candidates from applying for tenure-track quantum position

#110

Post by olliej »

joannanewsom wrote: post #101
olliej wrote: post #69

Is this clunky? Yes. Is there a better way of doing it? Maybe. Is it an explicitly biased policy? Yes. However, correcting a biased system requires that there is a period with enforced change bias to correct the existing bias. This is because there are many ways previous explicitly biased policies entrench that bias even if the current environment is no longer explicitly biased. Even if we were to assume that everyon…

How do you determine which ethnic groups have been historically disadvantaged and to what extent need correction? Black: Yes Native American: ? Afghan: ? Puerto Rican: ? Hawaiian: ? Japanese: ? Jewish: ? White: No Or do you simply go until the diversity of the position/company matches the diversity of the general population?

Determining groups that have been historically disadvantaged is generally not difficult.

The part that is difficult is how you correct for that. There are many things you need to deal with. The most obvious ones being

* Fields having relatively small populations run into the standard low population vs. overall population statistics

* Fields that have historically restricted access to a group can legitimately point to a lack of "qualified" members in the restricted group

Neither has an easy solution. The only thing we know is that a failure to actively work on correcting the effect of historical discrimination extends the impact of that discrimination beyond the point when the discrimination "ended".

Like I said in the original post this particular example is clunky, but I also don't have any better ideas :-/

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