How to Save a Ski Town • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#101

Post by flybrand » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:01 AM UTC

micro_cam wrote: post #22

mastax wrote: post #2

I imagine the Swiss have dealt with similar situations, I wonder what they would suggest? Pay employees way more is probably step one. I'm the "build more housing" guy, but it looks like the Swiss have chosen a different path?

They have much better trains / public transit to bring both workers and day tourists in and much denser towns with lots of old small living spaces. I'm no expert but do live in a western mountain town and have an old climbing friend who just bought a closet to live in in the Alps. Part of the issue here is towns have very limited sewage and water systems so its not like you can just build new apartments/duplexes/tiny…

Agreed - I live in rural New Hampshire and the constraint to growth is the cost of civil infrastructure that has to be built through granite.

With the book from the panic, people have bought lots all over thinking they could just build… it doesn’t work like that. The rock doesn’t always agree w your plans.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#102

Post by cjohnson318 » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:01 AM UTC

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

The problem is pretty simple; the stock of mountain resort towns has not kept up to satisfy demand. Imagine 15 or 20 years ago, a trip to a somewhat remote mountain town had a lot of inconveniences like bad internet, unpredictable weather/travel conditions, etc. In the current year, it's very easy to book an entire trip to Vail/Tahoe in 30 minutes. The amenities and infrastructure are decent making it a viable place…

In New Mexico, if you want to hunt from out of state, you have to go through a lottery system. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

I think global warming is going to make it harder for "mountain resort town" supply.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#103

Post by lbarrow » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

SwagGrocery wrote: post #39

There are a lot of comments about eliminating investment properties and providing subsidized housing. Why don't we let the market work itself out? Let's see how magical Crested Butte is in a few years with no intervention. I suspect you'll be able to get a nice ski-in/ski-out condo at a significant discount when there are no longer any businesses open in the town.

I think the real "market" solution here would be to remove the ability of both out-of-town owners and locals to block new housing development. The article cites an example of a 200+ unit development in Brush Creek that was effectively vetoed by local NIMBYs; this in an area where only 800 people voted in the main Crested Butte elections.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#104

Post by lbarrow » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #96

armenarmen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the market could build its way out of this, it already would have I believe the author mentions that there was a proposed large apartment building (250 ish units) that could, presumably, have alleviated some of the demand but that it was voted down by nimby types to avoid CB “becoming aurora” I’d think then that it’s less so the market preventing building than it is voters and activist home owners

The free market is precisely what gave this particular makeup of voters and activist home owners the keys to the kingdom. If you can't afford to pay to play in that municipality, you don't get to vote.

The "free market" didn't give those activists the right to veto development, the political processes and rules of their communities did. It's silly to treat that veto as a natural result, it's just as contingent as any other political rule.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#105

Post by lbarrow » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:08 AM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #82

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Honest question, have any of these ski towns tried allowing the construction of a significant amount of housing? I.e. housing growth that actually scales with the growth in demand? None of the ones I've visited seem at all dense. (Been to Vail, Beaver Creek, Park City, and all over Tahoe.) All the consternation over the housing crisis is maddening to me because it seems like universally (in the US), we're willing to…

Is lack of housing really the problem? The resorts themselves are already far too crowded, and it's not like there's a unlimited amount of skiiable area to expend to. Not to mention how awful dense housing would be in a supposedly remote area. It would turn it into "only some can access this area" to "everyone can access but no one can enjoy it."

Yes, lack of housing is a huge part of the problem. The entire article is about how housing has gotten so expensive in these areas that few of the locals can afford to live there anymore, which leads to crippling worker shortages and many other problems.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#106

Post by dustintrex » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:09 AM UTC

bamboozled wrote: post #61

dustintrex wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your view is representative of "Asia", or even Japan. Housing in Japan is by world standards extremely affordable and generally depreciates in value instead of appreciating, making it a terrible investment. If your town is "somewhat severely aged", that means the youth have already made the call to head for the cities and it's lack of jobs, not lack of affordable property, that's driving that. There are…

In "most" of Japan, that might be the case, but the article is about Ski towns. There is plenty of young people who have tried to move to ski towns from large cities and have already been priced out. I'm not talking about some random country side spots, I'm talking about mountain towns, inline with the article. "There are a couple of foreign-investor hotspot blips like newly trendy ski town Niseko" Do you have any id…

Well, "new" as in over the last 20 years, not too long on the Japanese time scale.

You obviously have strong feelings about this, but can you expand a bit more on who exactly the "victims" here are? I'll readily admit I haven't been in the area for a long time, but my understanding is that the Niseko boom largely involves the construction of net new housing (Swiss-style chalet apartments etc), since the Australian/Chinese jet set fueling it is not particularly interested in typical cramped and disposable Japanese-style housing.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#107

Post by mitigating » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

tayo42 wrote: post #97

i_love_music wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It has been trending up for years with better equipment, but COVID opened up the floodgates. Now the NPs have to employee "ski rangers" to help assist the chaos that is bc skiing in popular spots. I don't like where this is headed. Serenity and solitude get removed from the outdoors more and more every season. Summer and winter. I am really torn. Part of me wants everyone to enjoy nature and outdoors, but the…

It wouldn't be so bad if these new outdoor people actually respected the outdoors. Yet they show up with blue tooth radios and leave trash around

Everyone is a new person to someone

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#108

Post by ghaff » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:17 AM UTC

kernoble wrote: post #98

ghaff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IMO I think the only solution is to create more mountain towns and ski resorts. Almost impossible given environmental constraints. (Whether one agrees or disagrees.) Even expanding existing resorts is tough. And it's not clear the economics are there given demographics even leaving aside any climate change factors. ADDED: More rural towns with very limited facilities may be possible given Starlink, etc. But they're…

I'm pretty sure > the only solution is to create more mountain towns and ski resorts was meant as a strawman.

Maybe. Certainly there are enough people on these pages promoting all sorts of unrealistic BUILD BUILD BUILD programs in all sorts of contexts that it's hard to tell the difference between satire and something else.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#109

Post by enraged_camel » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:17 AM UTC

SwagGrocery wrote: post #39

There are a lot of comments about eliminating investment properties and providing subsidized housing. Why don't we let the market work itself out? Let's see how magical Crested Butte is in a few years with no intervention. I suspect you'll be able to get a nice ski-in/ski-out condo at a significant discount when there are no longer any businesses open in the town.

Markets tend to be pretty bad at dealing with huge and relatively sudden shocks without causing a ton of harm to incumbents (i.e. existing residents who live and work there).

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#110

Post by hamolton » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

ragnot wrote: post #3

With seasons seemingly getting shorter and/or worse (due to what I assume to be global warming) and the lines just getting absolutely ridiculous [1], I think I've accepted the fact that skiing/snowboarding is going to be a different experience for my kids. That experience probably won't be at a traditional mountain like Killington, Vail, etc. The lines will be too long, too expensive, just overall it will suck. Hones…

Purg, Wolf Creek, & Loveland haven't had big lines any times I've been there. My mother said Los Alamos, Santa Fe, & Taos lift lines are far better now on powder days than when she grew up thanks to more chairs on lifts + high speed lifts.