How to Save a Ski Town • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#51

Post by i_love_music » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

farnsworth wrote: post #8

ragnot wrote: post #3

With seasons seemingly getting shorter and/or worse (due to what I assume to be global warming) and the lines just getting absolutely ridiculous [1], I think I've accepted the fact that skiing/snowboarding is going to be a different experience for my kids. That experience probably won't be at a traditional mountain like Killington, Vail, etc. The lines will be too long, too expensive, just overall it will suck. Hones…

Wait till you find out how overcrowded backcountry skiing has gotten too.

Agreed. It has been trending up for years with better equipment, but COVID opened up the floodgates. Now the NPs have to employee "ski rangers" to help assist the chaos that is bc skiing in popular spots. I don't like where this is headed. Serenity and solitude get removed from the outdoors more and more every season. Summer and winter.

I am really torn. Part of me wants everyone to enjoy nature and outdoors, but the other part of me wants to keep it pristine. These desires seem at odds with each other.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#52

Post by 88913527 » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

verve_rat wrote: post #44

bamboozled wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your read the article, they cover this topic. There's also a kind of preservation of the culture of the town. Which I kind of agree with. Then there is also the fact that a lot of these places aren't used for housing, they're used as play houses or AirBnB's. So just adding more houses will likely mean more empty stuff in the town, probably making the problem worse.

So make empty houses (and AirBnB's) illegal (aka super taxed out the wazzoo). The people that live in a place should be able to say what they do and do not want in their town.

I'm not convinced this is quite it. The housing demand (by real, live physical people, not remote investors) is likely seasonal. Town like Tahoe might have 10x the number of people in them 12 weeks of the year. Unless we're setting up tents, we'll need permanent structures available for short term rental.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#53

Post by rcpt » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

danielheath wrote: post #41

SwagGrocery wrote: post #39

There are a lot of comments about eliminating investment properties and providing subsidized housing. Why don't we let the market work itself out? Let's see how magical Crested Butte is in a few years with no intervention. I suspect you'll be able to get a nice ski-in/ski-out condo at a significant discount when there are no longer any businesses open in the town.

Did 'the market' build the roads, sewerage and power grids that made it viable to have a township there, or did the government decide they should exist and fund them directly?

No Denver pays for those.

Remote mountain towns never pencil out. It's incredibly expensive to maintain even typical suburban sprawl let alone frontier outposts in the wilderness.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#54

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

Simple question: Why can't the restaurants and such raise prices? And thus pay??

The non-locals drove up the price of housing and were still ready, willing, and able to pay. Why should that cycle stop there?

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#55

Post by souplesse » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #29

geephroh wrote: post #13

Ironic coming from one of the media outlets responsible for destroying so many mountain towns by putting them on "must-visit" destination lists for the IG crowd. But those $200 camp chairs and $800 puffy jackets aren't going to sell themselves, I suppose...

Man, those people are awful aren't they? Telling people about nice places and nice things. It's supposed to be for the special people, like us. Idiots, blabbing about our stuff, ruining it.

I think you missed the point.

There’s nothing wrong with Outside sharing nice places with world, but it’s ironic that they would also publish an article decrying the very popularization that they themselves often cause.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#56

Post by jjtheblunt » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Honest question, have any of these ski towns tried allowing the construction of a significant amount of housing? I.e. housing growth that actually scales with the growth in demand? None of the ones I've visited seem at all dense. (Been to Vail, Beaver Creek, Park City, and all over Tahoe.) All the consternation over the housing crisis is maddening to me because it seems like universally (in the US), we're willing to…

the article points out something like 66% of the houses already there sit empty (averaged across the year).

does that mean the "build more housing" idea is not the problem?

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#57

Post by reducesuffering » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

boringg wrote: post #50

One of the biggest problems that is hitting ski towns is the hyper cheap season passes that everyone buys. The model has created a huge surge of demand for people to go skiing in winter which has put pressure on the local ski towns (more short term rental demands, second home buyers) and the resources at ski mountains (aka the insane lines on a good ski day now). It's interesting because it has allowed a lot more peo…

Lift tickets are like 2x what they were 7 years ago. Prices are matching demand, I doubt it's vice versa. Personally, I think social media is the culprit for the increased demand. Previously people in most places barely knew skiing was an accessible thing to do. Now you have mimetic desire from their friends posting glamor shots at the resort for all to see.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#58

Post by xrd » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

cletus wrote: post #47

xrd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own a second home, for the record. I do think it would be difficult and have second order effects to ban AirBnB. But, what about a tax on vacancies, rather than on revenue you get when renting it out? Incentivize people to keep their places filled? I agree with the general sentiment that AirBnB has altered housing options for low income people for the worse. And, it seems inevitable. Maybe we need to alter ou…

This is what Vancouver has tried [1]. It doesn't seem to have worked. The problem here is that it's too easy to game. You can put in a token resident. The same can apply to having income limits on houses. You have a low income resident who just happens to have rich friends who visit. I think we need to attack the idea that rich people use real estate to park money and avoid taxes. [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/…

It seemed too easy. Thanks, good link.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#59

Post by lumost » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Honest question, have any of these ski towns tried allowing the construction of a significant amount of housing? I.e. housing growth that actually scales with the growth in demand? None of the ones I've visited seem at all dense. (Been to Vail, Beaver Creek, Park City, and all over Tahoe.) All the consternation over the housing crisis is maddening to me because it seems like universally (in the US), we're willing to…

A few of the towns in the article have vacancy rates greater than 50%. If the free market can support a 50% occupancy rate, there isn't a great reason to think that it can't support a 90 or 95% occupancy rate. Increasing the housing stock by 50% to house 5% of the towns population seems inefficient for both investment owners and workers.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#60

Post by rjsw » Mon, Nov 29, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

Tempest1981 wrote: post #40

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Honest question, have any of these ski towns tried allowing the construction of a significant amount of housing? I.e. housing growth that actually scales with the growth in demand? None of the ones I've visited seem at all dense. (Been to Vail, Beaver Creek, Park City, and all over Tahoe.) All the consternation over the housing crisis is maddening to me because it seems like universally (in the US), we're willing to…

Logistics. Crested Butte is 3 hours from the nearest larger town, Grand Junction. Assuming good weather. You need workers and materials to build new housing. There is already a shortage of workers. Builders in Grand Junction can make far more profit by building in Grand Junction, vs driving 6 hours each day to Crested Butte and back. Same with hauling materials.

In other ski towns you build during the off-seasons and the construction workers live in the apartments that would be otherwise empty.