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Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

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Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#101

Post by clra »

shkkmo wrote: post #84
clra wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate — OOC, what do you think the end game for Álvaro would be under this scenario? Under the most cynical interpretation, I guess he'd convert Ongres from a Postgres consultancy to a trademark troll and sue other companies who try to use "Postgres"? Maybe, but that's a pretty serious professional change, and seems a little unlikely, especially given that's a considerable chance that he loses…

I get the impression that Álvaro has issues with the governance of the core team and PGCAC and thus wanted trademarks to protect his consultancy that were under the control of his non-profit which he believes has stricter governance. He also seems to be interested in leveraging the trademarks to force governance changes on the core team and PGCAC.

Yeah. My comments are from before Alvaro started commenting in this thread, and I've since changed my position based on reading his responses.

> He also seems to be interested in leveraging the trademarks to force governance changes on the core team and PGCAC.

This is it. The strategy was to acquire the trademarks and then use them as leverage to force the dissolution of Postgres Core and its associated organizations, to be replaced with a new power structure which includes him as a key member.

The very last part is me editorializing somewhat (although it's not very much of a stretch), but he's been quite explicit about the rest of it.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#103

Post by arp242 »

ahachete wrote: post #83
mbreese wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only through laywers Of course they will only talk via lawyers! That's what they have to do to make sure that all communication is clear, documented, and not misinterpreted (by either party). Once the problem escalates to be a legal dispute, this is the only way communication can happen. And as soon as this escalates to a lawsuit, the existence of the dispute will be public. >If PEU can hold trademarks, why can't F…

> Once the problem escalates to be a legal dispute, this is the only way communication can happen. But there hasn't been any other previous communication. Our first notice from them, as detailed in the post, was from their lawyers. So there has been no attempt on their side to come to even an amicable conversation. I offered that --but was denied. > And honestly, even the domain name postgr.es is confusing. That doma…

> > Once the problem escalates to be a legal dispute, this is the only way communication can happen.

> But there hasn't been any other previous communication. Our first notice from them, as detailed in the post, was from their lawyers.

> So there has been no attempt on their side to come to even an amicable conversation. I offered that --but was denied.

The problem with not doing it through a lawyer is that you might inadvertently say something that could disadvantage you later on if things go to court. The value a lawyer offers here is that they're familiar with all the ins and outs of the relevant laws, and which words may or may not carry meaning if it goes to court.

In many ways it's a lose-lose situation: going through a lawyer can come off as cold, distant, and even threatening, but not doing so risks screwing yourself over. Since they don't really know you or your motivations, going through a lawyer is clearly the best option. Especially when dealing with a bad-faith actor who might do their best to twist words it can really cover yourself. You might say "of course I would never do that!" and I fully believe you're honest in that, but PostgreSQL people have no way of knowing that, not for sure anyway.

So my advice would be to not take that it went through a lawyer as "un-amicable conversation"; it's just how these things work. Maybe it shouldn't, but it is.

As for the actual meat of the matter: I read your reply on your website and some of your posts here, but I don't really understand what advantage to the wider PostgreSQL community if Fundación PostgreSQL has any trademarks, and only see potential risks. Who knows what will happen with those trademarks in five, ten, or twenty years? You could get hit by a bus tomorrow and whoever ends up in control of the foundation could be a Bad Guy™ or (possibly inadvertently) transfer the trademarks to such a person.

It seems to me that the most logical place to put the trademark is with the same people we trust with the code, and I don't see why we should trust them with the code but not the trademarks?

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#104

Post by arp242 »

yxhuvud wrote: post #47
dr_zoidberg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about an interface like GitHub issues? Do you feel that strikes a balance between consumers/producers for this kind of discussions? Edit: I think you updated your comment while I replied (or maybe I just hit reply without seing the last part of your comment). I see now that you've mentioned GitHub issues, which is a kind of interface that I've seen get a better balance, but I'm not sure how it stands from a produ…

GH issues does not fan out into contextual threads. That makes it a nonstarter.

They have "Discussions" now which includes threads and such, but I haven't really used it much other than leaving a comment just yesterday, so I don't really know how good or bad it is.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#105

Post by sp8962 »

remram wrote: post #62
jpalomaki wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general you are responsible for defending your trademarks and taking action if they are violated. In non-obvious cases this makes perfect sense. There’s plenty of abandoned trademarks. This system means that you can’t just take old and forgotten trademark and start suddenly demanding money from companies that (unknowingly) infringe it. I believe this is also the reason why big name brands sometimes go after indivi…

It looks like a trademark has already registered in Spain to that different organization, even though there were existing trademark registrations and an organization (PGCAC) actively looking to defend it. Unless the PGCAC majorly messed up some process or didn't respond in time to inquiries from Spain officials, it looks to me like the system (at least in Spain?) does not work.

> ... or didn't respond in time to inquiries from Spain officials, it looks to me like the system (at least in Spain?) does not work.

As a rule you will not be contacted by the relevant trademark registering office. What happens is that the registration filing is published, and if you are opposed to it going through you will need to file opposition within a certain period after the publication.

That's why organisations with IP to protect typically directly or indirectly (that is via counsel) use trademark watching services. Essentially these scan the where ever the filings are published, and will send you alerts or whatever when something turns up on the radar.

Actually filing opposition is rather tedious and expensive, and particularly when different good/service classes are being used, sometimes difficult to actually be successful with.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#106

Post by sp8962 »

kylecordes wrote: post #44

I wonder why the pre-existing core PostgreSQL organization (not super-clear to me which this is) did already have these trademarks in the top handful of countries/jurisdictions. Rather than wait for someone else to try and then get in a potentially expensive fight. PostgreSQL has been around for 25 years, there has been ample time to figure that out, right?

Likely because it is tedious (think watching paint dry) and expensive. And except if you take a shotgun approach to the service/goods classes you register in, you are still going to have exposure (in the US you need to provide proof of use down the road so its a non.starter there).

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#107

Post by hythythyt »

aunty_helen wrote: post #31
matsemann wrote: post #7

What's the end game of the Spanish org? What are they trying to achieve with this?

Getting a foothold. Spain doesn’t operate on the same level as other European countries when it comes to some things, banking and trademarks would be two good examples of this.

why?

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#108

Post by remram »

sp8962 wrote: post #105
remram wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like a trademark has already registered in Spain to that different organization, even though there were existing trademark registrations and an organization (PGCAC) actively looking to defend it. Unless the PGCAC majorly messed up some process or didn't respond in time to inquiries from Spain officials, it looks to me like the system (at least in Spain?) does not work.

> ... or didn't respond in time to inquiries from Spain officials, it looks to me like the system (at least in Spain?) does not work. As a rule you will not be contacted by the relevant trademark registering office. What happens is that the registration filing is published, and if you are opposed to it going through you will need to file opposition within a certain period after the publication. That's why organisatio…

I suppose that's viable, as a process. Maybe even the best we can do.

What I'm surprised about is that they call it a "registry" when it operates more like a mailing-list, where you should watch for publications and reply when you have objections. A "registered trademark" is more a "trademark advertised on the mailing-list with no objection at the time". Which is not silly, but somewhat inappropriately named.

Re: Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

#109

Post by Tobu »

gilrain wrote: post #102
matsemann wrote: post #7

What's the end game of the Spanish org? What are they trying to achieve with this?

A narcissist is equating himself with a community he fancies and is attempting to force it under his control.

Shades of https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee...
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