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Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

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Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#101
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industrial revolution was as much a product of economics as technology. If wages for lower-class workers hadn't been nearly so high, the technology might have come and gone without making much of a ripple. In fact, there's an argument to be made that it once did exactly that. Steam-powered machines were known to the Romans, and seen as a stupid novelty. Disclaimer: I don't know English history well enough to put…

The industrial revolution was as much a product of economics as technology. If wages for lower-class workers hadn't been nearly so high, the technology might have come and gone without making much of a ripple. The reason why the industrial revolution happened in the UK as it did is disputed by historians. I would argue that high wage, while important as an incentive for industrial development, isn't a fundamental rea…

I've studied the causes of the Industrial Revolution a little(in undergrad classes) and one of the points that stuck with me is that early-modern machining had greatly improved. Roman-era lathes were of a different character[0] and their limitations in accuracy and power were a major dependency to the development of other machined parts. As well, the Romans had a pre-Newtonian physics and mathematics, limiting the percieved applications of their inventions. There really is a lot that 1000-2000 years of background development gives you.

The early moderns are also interesting because of the wage issue, which is not quite what it seems. It is known that wages were high following the Black Death, and this created room for mercantile economics powered by double-entry bookkeeping, rather than tributary ones, to take over the political economy. Everything in the modern period becomes a bit more of a business. However, the political class then moved to lower wages and adopted such as part of early merchantalist theory - keep them lean and hungry so they work hard.

This attitude encouraged the development of impressment, indentured servitude and chattel slavery: the easiest way to move a worker's wages off the books was to turn them into property. Thus by the mid 1600's, you already have a world where the populace has been disempowered and coerced into the project of colonial nation building(a means of putting more assets on the books - claim the rights), and the backlash to that powers an interest in developing liberalism in the 1700's, which coincides with the utilitarian ethics of Bentham and Smith. There's a lot of history that coincides with "and then this philosopher published a very relevant work".

The underlying political thing of early modern Europe, of course, was the disunification. The inventors and scholars in this period are always fleeing from a noble that they pissed off and finding refuge somewhere else. A unified Europe would have had more opportunities to surpress technologies, as occurred in China throughout its history.

None of that forms a complete hypothesis, and it doesn't even touch on the "why Britain specifically" question, but it gets it away from being a "Europe so great" anaysis.

[0] http://blog.mmi-direct.com/machining-history-lathe-the-mothe...

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#102
post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

The Phoenician colonies were in the Mediterranean, but the Phoenicians were blue-water sailors.

Much of the tin used to make the Bronze Age the Bronze Age came from Cornwall, and the Phoenicians had a monopoly on that trade.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#103
post #61

> These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right - to northward of them. It's 600BC. The idea that the world is a sphere isn't accepted yet. Herodotus explicitly says he doesn't believe what these sailors said- that the sun was to the north. Yet we know that if a sailor…

Agreed. The sailors' claim is strong evidence that the voyage really happened. The fact that Herodotus doubts the claim shows that people were likely to doubt it, and so it's not the kind of thing someone would have made up. The only reason for the sailors to make such a potentially-discrediting claim is that it is true.

[deleted]

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently reading Clive Pointing's 'World History - A new perspective'. >800 pages of well researched history with a large Eurasian focus (due to the availability of sources, not bias). He repeatedly makes the point that some technology that Europe 'discovered' in the 13-19hundreds was in fact known in china 1000+ years earlier. Most of recorded history Europe basically played no role whatsoever. A few examples t…

With all these advantages, why did the industrial revolution happen in Europe instead of Asia?

Guns Germs and Steel, Diamond. From wikipedia synopsis:

"Diamond argues that Eurasian civilization is not so much a product of ingenuity, but of opportunity and necessity. That is, civilization is not created out of superior intelligence, but is the result of a chain of developments, each made possible by certain preconditions."

For example the mediterranean region had 5(6?) domesticated animals and had wheat,barley oats and spelt grains. Asia had rice.

The North Americans in contrast, had no domesticated animals and didn't get maize until shortly before the Europeans arrived.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#105

If you haven't read it I highly recommend The History. Herodotus can be very entertaining. He pretty clearly lays out things he personally saw, things he heard from firsthand accounts, and things he heard secondhand. It's fun to see how things get more fanciful the farther you get away from the Mediterranean he knew. One thing that randomly sticks in my head is he said the Ethiopians were there most beautiful people…

If the Ethiopians had had coffee in the time of Herodot then the Romans would have taken to it enthusiastically, and Pliny would have mentioned it. Unfortunately, he doesn't!

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently reading Clive Pointing's 'World History - A new perspective'. >800 pages of well researched history with a large Eurasian focus (due to the availability of sources, not bias). He repeatedly makes the point that some technology that Europe 'discovered' in the 13-19hundreds was in fact known in china 1000+ years earlier. Most of recorded history Europe basically played no role whatsoever. A few examples t…

With all these advantages, why did the industrial revolution happen in Europe instead of Asia?

Lots of reasons, climate, waterways, lack of glass making technology, understanding of astronomy etc. More detailed explanation: https://link.medium.com/fCP369iaCgb

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#107

"The Histories" by Herodotus is a wonderful read, but it really matters which translation you use. The is the one I read is translated by Robin Waterfield. https://www.amazon.com/Histories-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0... I also have a newer one translated by Tom Holland, and it seems to be a good choice too. This is how Robin Waterford translates the quoted section (Book Four, section 42): "After all, Libya is demonst…

Wow! He plays Spider-Man and translates Ancient Greek!

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#108
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a historian and I recently cited Herodotus in one of my forthcoming papers. Is he reliable? We certainly can't assume so. But the same goes for Thucydides and every other source from the ancient world. It's all about triangulating between different sources rather than relying on any one account. In my case, Herodotus was describing a Scythian practice (the use of cannabis) that we've been able to corroborate, in…

Obligatory: I love Hacker News Not only am I interested to hear that "hot boxing" is an ancient practice, but also the sense of immediacy that I now have with ancient Persia over our shared etymology of kanab .

I love history for that. Just knowing about the past gives me a feeling of connection to places I've never been to or times I'll never get to witness.

As an aside, the Scythians were not in what we'd today consider Persia (Iran). They originated around the north coast of the Black Sea, and extended east and southeast from there along the Eurasian steppe.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#109
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s this guy, Randall Carlson, who claims the great pyramid of Cheops is a scaled version of the northern hemisphere. If true, I guess it would mean the Egyptians knew the earth was round. https://sacredgeometryinternational.com/the-great-pyramid-de...

That article is mostly just a hard to read description of latitude, longitude and meridians. Didn't actually see anywhere that the point was made.

It’s hard to read because it’s a video transcript of a Joe Rogan interview. In the actual interview his explanation becomes more clear imo.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#110
post #2

The ancient Egyptian (or Persians?) built a Suez canal predecessor? Incredible. Is it a tourist attraction? And imagine building it only to realize that the surface height of the sea and the Nile don't match. Oops! Also I like that the parts of the circumnavigation tale that Herotodus thought unbelievable (sun on the "wrong" side) actually now make it more clearly true and not just another of Herotodus's exaggeration…

Um, there are no locks on the current modern Suez canal. The difference in height between the Med and the Red is only 28 feet. The resulting current is negligible and seasonal. Oops!
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