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Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

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Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#21

Post by wsc981 »

detritus wrote: post #19
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not have the knowledge to judge Herodotus (for his other stories), however even if he lied purposefully on that one, he is right about many things that practically none could have guessed with the current knowledge of his time. 1- the position of the sun when navigating in the southern hemisphere. 2- claiming a journey of 3 years It could be a coincidence of course. But then that would make from him a very smart…

As for one, at least, if the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians knew the world was spherical (as they did, and had an approximate measure of its dimension), this could be easily predicted and might make part of whatever speculative discussion they had that was the equivalence of HN or general interested internerdery here. The second is harder to find an excuse for. (O/T) Of interest to me is something I learned from HN - h…

There’s this guy, Randall Carlson, who claims the great pyramid of Cheops is a scaled version of the northern hemisphere. If true, I guess it would mean the Egyptians knew the earth was round.

https://sacredgeometryinternational.com/the-great-pyramid-de...

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#22

Post by not2b »

dpeck wrote: post #11

That is interesting and from a very layman’s understanding it would be unexpected. I’m just a casual fan of history and have listened to a lot of lectures for Mediterranean history around bronze age, and my takeaway was that the consensus among Egyptologists was that ancient Egyptians never got very good at navigation & seamanship because they didn’t have to be. They had wind to go upstream on the Nile and current to…

I suppose they could have hugged the coast all the away around Africa. It's also possible that the voyage never happened.

But yes, being first doesn't matter as much as being first to be successful and following up. Other Europeans got to the New World first but Columbus kicked off Spain's colonization and that led to everything else.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#23

Post by kragen »

detritus wrote: post #19
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not have the knowledge to judge Herodotus (for his other stories), however even if he lied purposefully on that one, he is right about many things that practically none could have guessed with the current knowledge of his time. 1- the position of the sun when navigating in the southern hemisphere. 2- claiming a journey of 3 years It could be a coincidence of course. But then that would make from him a very smart…

As for one, at least, if the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians knew the world was spherical (as they did, and had an approximate measure of its dimension), this could be easily predicted and might make part of whatever speculative discussion they had that was the equivalence of HN or general interested internerdery here. The second is harder to find an excuse for. (O/T) Of interest to me is something I learned from HN - h…

Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the Earth pretty well in 00240 BCE. Aristotle claimed it was round around 00350 BCE, and might have had a correct value, but uncertainty about units of measurement means his error could have been as large as a factor of 2, and the roundness of the earth was still a matter of debate at the time.

Herodotus died around 00425 BCE and probably wrote closer to 00435 BCE.

They were all "ancient Greeks" (and Eratosthenes lived in Egypt, so I guess he was an "ancient Egyptian" too) but that doesn't mean they were contemporary. Imagine someone in the year 04542 CE writing, "If the ancient Terrans knew about nuclear energy (as they did, and had unreliable and inefficient fission power plants and nuclear weapons), then Lincoln could have easily used atomic bombs in the US Civil War!" The timespan from Lincoln to Hiroshima was 80 years, from Herodotus to Aristotle about 100 years, and from Herodotus to Eratosthenes about 200 years. And those were very eventful centuries, much like our own.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#24

Post by fsckboy »

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage.

Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 15th century CE; not saying they were better sailors, but that 2000 years later maritime technology was a lot better.

[1] I put in footnotes to point out how stupid footnotes are on HN: just past the link into the text up above, it gets highlighted and works just fine.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#25

Post by dukeofdoom »

tgb wrote: post #2

The ancient Egyptian (or Persians?) built a Suez canal predecessor? Incredible. Is it a tourist attraction? And imagine building it only to realize that the surface height of the sea and the Nile don't match. Oops! Also I like that the parts of the circumnavigation tale that Herotodus thought unbelievable (sun on the "wrong" side) actually now make it more clearly true and not just another of Herotodus's exaggeration…

Up until recently I did not know there was a way out from the Great Lakes into the ocean that does not involve going up North all the way through St. Lawrence. You can go through the Welland canal and shortcuts and end up going down South.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#26

Post by detritus »

kragen wrote: post #23
detritus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for one, at least, if the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians knew the world was spherical (as they did, and had an approximate measure of its dimension), this could be easily predicted and might make part of whatever speculative discussion they had that was the equivalence of HN or general interested internerdery here. The second is harder to find an excuse for. (O/T) Of interest to me is something I learned from HN - h…

Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the Earth pretty well in 00240 BCE. Aristotle claimed it was round around 00350 BCE, and might have had a correct value, but uncertainty about units of measurement means his error could have been as large as a factor of 2, and the roundness of the earth was still a matter of debate at the time. Herodotus died around 00425 BCE and probably wrote closer to 00435 BCE. They were al…

Mediterranean countries had artificial candle-or-whatever light with which to play upon spherical fruit dangling from trees, which otherwise in the daytime caught specular light glimmering through leaves.

Knowing the Earth was round, I don't find it hard to imagine that interested minds of the day picked a fruit and toyed with it in hand, squinting a bit and considering the implications.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#27

Post by generalizations »

wsc981 wrote: post #21
detritus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for one, at least, if the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians knew the world was spherical (as they did, and had an approximate measure of its dimension), this could be easily predicted and might make part of whatever speculative discussion they had that was the equivalence of HN or general interested internerdery here. The second is harder to find an excuse for. (O/T) Of interest to me is something I learned from HN - h…

There’s this guy, Randall Carlson, who claims the great pyramid of Cheops is a scaled version of the northern hemisphere. If true, I guess it would mean the Egyptians knew the earth was round. https://sacredgeometryinternational.com/the-great-pyramid-de...

That article is mostly just a hard to read description of latitude, longitude and meridians. Didn't actually see anywhere that the point was made.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#28

Post by foreigner »

If you haven't read it I highly recommend The History. Herodotus can be very entertaining. He pretty clearly lays out things he personally saw, things he heard from firsthand accounts, and things he heard secondhand. It's fun to see how things get more fanciful the farther you get away from the Mediterranean he knew.

One thing that randomly sticks in my head is he said the Ethiopians were there most beautiful people in the world because they drank so much coffee, but beyond Ethiopia the land is uninhabitable because of all the flying snakes.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#29

Post by progre »

fsckboy wrote: post #24

I'm skeptical. No matter how good the Phoenician sailors were, it seems unlikely to me that they could have blithely sailed past Cape Bojador[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador Maybe if they had small enough boats to stick close to the shore and portage. Seafaring on the Mediterranean is simply a lot less complex than it is on the open ocean. The European sailors were not able to pass this point till the 1…

Why not? The Phoenicians had rowers and could just take down their sails. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme they also beached their boats at night so they must have been quite comfortable traveling over shallows.

Re: Egyptian Circumnavigation of Africa ~600 BC

#30

Post by rendall »

foreigner wrote: post #28

If you haven't read it I highly recommend The History. Herodotus can be very entertaining. He pretty clearly lays out things he personally saw, things he heard from firsthand accounts, and things he heard secondhand. It's fun to see how things get more fanciful the farther you get away from the Mediterranean he knew. One thing that randomly sticks in my head is he said the Ethiopians were there most beautiful people…

Various readings of Herodotus on LibriVox: https://librivox.app/book/12931
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