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The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

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Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#101

Post by random314 »

boruto wrote: post #8
alex_smart wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In my day it took 4 years of preparation starting age 14. Nowadays kids start at 11 or earlier. That's more due to Indian coaching companies preying on Indian's parents' extreme sense of desperation and FOMO for their children rather than any real need to start that early. I don't think any more than two years are required or recommended for preparation of the exam. The longer you stretch the preparation, the longer…

> : I was top 10 in JEE This should be anti-source if you say you don't need to prepare hard enough.

Bragging about JEE rank (called AIR) is almost unavoidable with folks from IIT. In this case it would invalidate his argument, because he is an outlier sample. But they can't help themselves :)

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#102

Post by random314 »

alex_smart wrote: post #15
boruto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> : I was top 10 in JEE This should be anti-source if you say you don't need to prepare hard enough.

I did have to prepare hard in those two years, but two years was more than enough. A lot about doing well in an exam as selective as this comes down to winning the genetic lottery. If you do not have the aptitude, then spending 5-6 years wholly devoted to an exam you are not going to crack is going to be an extremely demotivating way to spend your entire teenage life.

> winning the genetic lottery

As well as having educated supportive parents with a decent budget, and being part of an ecosystem where education is prioritized.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#103

Post by random314 »

pmoriarty wrote: post #55
rob74 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this is not a binary classification: there are those fortunate few who have, as you say, won the "genetic intelligence lottery" and sail through school and exams such as this with little to no effort, then there are those who have to study hard for x years in order to make it, then there are those who need extra tutoring, and then there are of course some who even with all the help their parents can afford will…

"there are those fortunate few who have, as you say, won the "genetic intelligence lottery" and sail through school and exams such as this with little to no effort" Is that just genetics? What about these kids' family lives? How about the interests kindled in them when they were young? How did their teachers treat them, and was there something in their experience in school, with tutors or parents which ignited a love…

There is a belief among folks who cleared the JEE that this is a pure consequence of their inner genius - they are mini-Einsteins.

They forget the investments their parents made - including sending them away for 2 years at a coaching and lodging centre - Something most folks cant afford. Or they forget that they had to appear twice or thrice. Surprisingly the entrance exam failed to recognize their genius the first time around.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#104

Post by alex_smart »

random314 wrote: post #100
alex_smart wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't know how you can make such a statement with a single digit rank. I don't quite follow why having a single digit rank should stop me from having an opinion on the subject. I come from a middle class family from the poorest part of the country. I have a lower caste background (OBC), and my father was the first in my family to receive a university education. For innumerous Biharis, JEE and other competitive exa…

> I don't quite follow why having a single digit rank should stop me from having an opinion on the subject. Rather, I expected someone with a single digit JEE rank to have a better, more rational perspective on JEE; instead of over the top romanticism. I know a few folks with a similar JEE ranks and their perspective is different. > A lot more than you think. Kota is probably at least 30% students from UP and Bihar,…

I can't participate in good faith in a discussion with someone who doesn't have the ability to be respectful to opinions different from his own. Have a good day.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#105

Post by alex_smart »

valarauko wrote: post #97
alex_smart wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raw scores! (Btw what are the un-raw scores called? cooked?!) 13 students getting top scores!! My God, it has been a while since I wrote the exam, has the situation changed that much since then? At my time, there was a 25 marks difference between the top two ranks. Is there any chance you are talking about JEE Mains and not the JEE Advanced? JEE Mains is supposed to be the easier test that serves as a "prelims" to th…

I was talking about the JEE Mains, because that's the only score the majority of students will be able to use for all the other (non-IIT) colleges. Even if we consider the Advanced, the difference between the top two ranks was only 6 points, and the top 8 were within the 25 point spread that separated the top two in your year (I'm using 2019 for a non pandemic perturbed year). The top 10 were separated by an average…

>Yes, some families from Bihar are able to muster up the amount

Not "some". It is literally lakhs of families every year. And if you look at the data of total number of JEE candidates from Bihar, that is actually a very significant percentage.

Even if you believe that coaching is not accessible to the average bright motivated Bihari student, the very fact that so many people from the poorest, most backward part of the country look at this exam as an instrument to better their lives should tell you something.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#106

Post by alex_smart »

tanaypingalkar wrote: post #99
nindalf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not a great source. Sounds like extreme sampling bias to me. What I’m saying is, you don’t know what it’s like being mediocre at school. I do. In my experience, being at the top is extremely motivating. It encourages you to put in even more effort. The opposite is also true - when you feel like you’ve given it everything but you’re still in middle of the pack, you get burned out. It’s easy for someone who prob…

You were not mediocre, school told you that you are mediocre. I am 14 and i do want to give JEE as I want to be a cs student. I do coding and i love it, but i am at such a place that i think jee is the only option. I have not even studied more than 2 hour from a year because of our schools are close. People always demotivate me and they tell that if you won't have good college (especially IIT), you will fail and all…

>Elders tell that if you get into IIT you will get 10 crore of package

That's nonsense. I'm from CS at a top IIT, and only a handful of my batchmates have that kind of compensation, and that is after >5 years of experience. Absolutely nobody is going to give you a 10 crore salary fresh out of college.

For students from other not so popular streams, in India, a salary of Rs 10-20 lakh a year is more realistic. Again, this is after 4-5 years of industry experience. Even after IIM, the average salary is around 20-30 lakhs.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#107

Post by valarauko »

ItsMonkk wrote: post #98
valarauko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow how this would work for students applying for college. In the specific example of the JEE, you have ~ 13K really prestigious seats that ~ 2.2 Million students are competing for, with about ~ 50K seats of decreasing desirability up for grabs. Similarly for the top medical colleges, ~ 340K applicants are competing for ~ 1200 seats. More than half of those seats are reserved for students from tradi…

You're still thinking of it in one big sort. That's the centralized method. That relies on metrics. You want several gradual sorts from the bottom up where each sortation relies on personal accountability between the different teachers and administrations. It would probably look much closer to the European football leagues. You would have gradual promotions and relegations every year.

I admit I'm quite baffled by your recommendation.

Is there an example where this system is employed for the purpose of college admissions?

> each sortation relies on personal accountability between the different teachers and administrations

How would such a system actually work? As an illustrative example, the year I graduated High School I was one among about ~ 300K graduating students in my province. There were only ~ 35K college seats across all undergraduate courses (including Women's Colleges, Evening Colleges, etc) in my province up for grabs. If I was interested in medicine, there were ~ 400 seats, of which ~ 150 are female only. How would 'personal accountability' between teachers & administrations work in this scenario? I still fail to grasp how you suggest one kid should go to college vs another. School grades? I had the highest grades in the science exam nationwide, but so did 10 other kids just in my school. All of us could have gotten glowing letters of recommendation from our teachers, and I think that's a terribly subjective way to evaluate large numbers of people.

If your football league analogy is meant to suggest that students should move into and between colleges based on performance, that still doesn't resolve how one gets into a college in the first place without an exam. Even with continual evaluation at the school level, you're still left with many more eligible students (100X) than you have capacity for.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#108

Post by valarauko »

alex_smart wrote: post #105
valarauko wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about the JEE Mains, because that's the only score the majority of students will be able to use for all the other (non-IIT) colleges. Even if we consider the Advanced, the difference between the top two ranks was only 6 points, and the top 8 were within the 25 point spread that separated the top two in your year (I'm using 2019 for a non pandemic perturbed year). The top 10 were separated by an average…

>Yes, some families from Bihar are able to muster up the amount Not "some". It is literally lakhs of families every year. And if you look at the data of total number of JEE candidates from Bihar, that is actually a very significant percentage. Even if you believe that coaching is not accessible to the average bright motivated Bihari student, the very fact that so many people from the poorest, most backward part of th…

> Not "some". It is literally lakhs of families every year. And if you look at the data of total number of JEE candidates from Bihar, that is actually a very significant percentage.

Across all the coaching centres in Kota, you have about ~ 150K students annually, so about 1.5 lakhs in total from all states. Even if the overwhelming majority were Bihari, it doesn't generalize. That's tells us more about the network effect operating in Bihar rather than something about dedicated students in general. That's a lot of kids for a tiny town like Kota, but a drop in the ocean when dealing with the scale of the JEE.

> the very fact that so many people from the poorest, most backward part of the country look at this exam as an instrument to better their lives should tell you something.

Yes, that the exam needs reform. The fact that so many students who 'succeed' at the exams benefited from enrolling in coaching classes suggests that the exam needs to be reformulated to eliminate that variable. It's not the only thing in the education system that needs reform, but it is one among many. If as you suggest serious students benefit from the community of other like minded kids, then self organizing study groups can happen and still save 25K/month.

According to me, the goal of the JEE is to identify ~ 10K kids with the right combination of aptitude & dedication, in a manner that's not blind to their wide ranging social & economic backgrounds. Attending a coaching centre is a signal for their family's desire, but I think we can find much better signals for aptitude & dedication.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#109

Post by random314 »

alex_smart wrote: post #104
random314 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't quite follow why having a single digit rank should stop me from having an opinion on the subject. Rather, I expected someone with a single digit JEE rank to have a better, more rational perspective on JEE; instead of over the top romanticism. I know a few folks with a similar JEE ranks and their perspective is different. > A lot more than you think. Kota is probably at least 30% students from UP and Bihar,…

I can't participate in good faith in a discussion with someone who doesn't have the ability to be respectful to opinions different from his own. Have a good day.

I have never witnessed a weaker copout either :D, AIR notwithstanding.

I always have a good day.

Re: The Textbook That Unleashed Ramanujan's Genius

#110

Post by random314 »

xNeil wrote: post #86
random314 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> irrespective of their backgrounds, to devote two years of their lives to serious study I don't know how you can make such a statement with a single digit rank. JEE offers the middle and upper middle class an opportunity to leap into the rich class. What percentage of India is middle class? How many lower middle class and poor folks can send their kids to kota to study for JEE? How much would it cost the Indian gove…

>How much would it cost the Indian government to develop detailed coaching videos by IIT professors and upload it for free to YouTube? That's EXACTLY what they did. Look at IIT-PAL on YouTube.

This actually looks great!
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