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Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

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Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the next pandemic may be just as bad as this one. or worse. Keep the aerosol vector, but make it even more effective. Increase the effectiveness of surface transmission. Throw in greater resistant to surfactants (soap) and hand sanitizers. boom!

Your scenario only increases infectiousness. Many viruses are more deadly than covid 19. H5N1 is about 60% fatal, more deadly than ebola. It's quite difficult to contract at least until researchers genetically modified it to be airborne. They didn't need permission for this research and didn't even perform it in the highest safety level labs.

That high level of virulence though works against it just due to being identified much quicker. You're not going to get cryptic spread of a virus which is 60% fatal.

This coronavirus might have spread to ~10,000 people and already jumped to Italy before anyone was aware there was a brewing medical crisis.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However given what we now know for sure we can safely say that border closures without an eradication policy (strict lockdowns and mass testing until the cases are undetectable followed by contact tracing) would not have changed anything. How do you make the conclusion that without a policy reducing travel wouldn’t have helped? That doesn’t even make sense.

I don't know how your government handled things, but here they waited until it was clear that the healthcare system was going to implode if nothing was done to implement serious restrictions. If we had stopped travel, we would have hit that point maybe a week or two later. Travel is linear while community spread is exponential. In the end, given the incredible efficacy of lockdowns, the total amounts of deaths and in…

Couple of points:

1. Lockdown and travel restrictions are not the same.

2. Travel restrictions and reasonable public health safety measure are not exclusive. They only work in conjunction.

I would argue that one of the most damaging things the EU did was take care of these things linearly.

As an example German Pharmacies warned the Government of mask supply issues in February. Maybe even January. I know february because beginning of February they were having those supply issues.

Fun fact, one of the biggest suppliers of machines that are required to make N95 mask threads is German(I think it was german, but could be central European). Yet, just like the US, Germany did not call for domestic mask production until months later. I'm not even sure they did at all seeing how a lot of masks later were cheap chinese masks sold over market value with quality control issues.

Contrast that to Taiwan, where fever wards were established right away, domestic mask production and distribution was increased and regulated, combined with a coherent message and paper contact tracing(i.e. no app to start right away). And before you say "but Taiwan". Yes, Taiwan has a second wave coming that will be way worse than the first one, since the top level government seems to have let arrogance forget a couple of the things they did right early on.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always try to use HIV as my point of reference for COVID-19. We got off lucky by that measure. So maybe my pessimism is unfounded, but I really wish we had learned more lessons from HIV.

From what I understand, HIV is fairly difficult to transmit, requiring an exchange of infected body fluids. This makes it deeply traumatic because the people you're most likely to infect will be people extremely close to you. To some extent this is true of almost any transmissable disease, but HIV added the twist that infection is very, very unlikely to happen between two individuals that are not physically intimate…

I’m not who you’re asking but I wish we had learned that a robust debate is necessary and we shouldn’t just assume tha Anthony Fauci has read the latest research.

https://www.econlib.org/great-moments-in-epidemiology/

He did enormous damage in 1983 by speculating about casual transmission of HIV within households even though he admitted to not having read the paper. He was slow to get up to speed on aerosol transmission this time around.

The comment at the bottom of that page also contains this gem from Oprah Winfrey in 1987:

> Research studies now project that one in five—listen to me, hard to believe—one in five heterosexuals could be dead from AIDS at the end of the next three years. That’s by 1990. One in five. It is no longer just a gay disease. Believe me.

Obviously that never happened. I was 12 that year and this sort of stuff terrorized us, even though it was based on highly dubious modeling, plus belief by public health officials in the promulgation of nobel lies.

I think we should have learned that groupthink and motivated reasoning can lead to all sorts of ancillary damage not just to psychological health, but to reduced trust in institutions, heightened political polarization, massive misallocation of resources, and putting focus on the wrong places.

We should have learned that being honest about what is known and what isn’t known and placing trust in the public leads to the public placing trust in public health authorities when it really matters. Credibility is extremely important to maintain, and protecting and encouraging a robust debate is paramount to discovering the truth and making better decisions.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#104
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, HIV is fairly difficult to transmit, requiring an exchange of infected body fluids. This makes it deeply traumatic because the people you're most likely to infect will be people extremely close to you. To some extent this is true of almost any transmissable disease, but HIV added the twist that infection is very, very unlikely to happen between two individuals that are not physically intimate…

> From what I understand, HIV is fairly difficult to transmit, requiring an exchange of infected body fluids. Fauci didn't think so in 1983. "But if ''nonsexual, non-blood-borne transmission is possible, the scope of the syndrome may be enormous,'' writes Dr. Fauci of the National Institutes of Health in an editorial to be published Friday in the Journal of the American Medical Association." https://www.nytimes.com/1…

[deleted]

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#105
post #35

Man, all the WHO bashing comments are getting downvoted pretty quickly, except: - WHO took a _long_ time to declare a pandemic when member countries were asking for it. - WHO actively discouraged international border closures for containment. - WHO took way too long to declare aerosol transmission even when countries had identified it. In a global scale event like this, there's no individual country who should have b…

Also WHO told people not to wear masks and that it could actually make it more likely to get covid (CDC echoed this as well). “But it was justified lying to protect the mask supply!”—some people already had masks, and didn’t wear them because of this. I had someone literally get mad at me and block me because I said wearing a mask was obviously a good idea, and an N95 is more likely to protect you than a cloth mask.

Ironically, WHO and CDC have done bad messaging on both sides of this. I get slammed every time I bring this up now, because the issue is politicized and, let's be honest, pretty traumatic as well. But I think it's important so I'll keep trying.

Everyone should have been masking up as soon as possible in the pandemic. Case counts were low, we didn't know much about the route of transmission, and we also thought it was even more dangerous than it turned out to be. Precautions were indicated, but health authorities were decrying mask use as late as the end of March.

But it turns out that the primary vector is aerosols, not droplets or fomites. Any mask will mitigate droplet contamination, and the resulting fomites: this is why influenza has practically disappeared, masking is very effective against influenza, where those are the primary vector.

But no mask will do much to filter aerosols on exhalation. That's simply not how they work, positive pressure puts most of the gasses out through the sides of the mask. Even a P100 filter with cartridges won't do it, that's why they have a vent, otherwise the face seal would be broken every time one exhales. To be generous, I'll say that a cloth mask catches 30% of aerosols. It doesn't, but say it does: that's not nearly good enough. Which case counts after universal masking mandates illustrate quite clearly: they rise, and fall, and the masks don't have anything to do with it.

A good mask will filter some aerosols when inhaling: but a cloth mask won't. So once aerosols were identified as the culprit, WHO and CDC should have emphasized air filtration, which is quite effective, limiting the number of people indoors on the basis of how many air exchanges a HEPA or ULPA filter was capable of doing. Messaging should have emphasized that cloth and surgical masks are completely useless, and that at-risk people should stay home, and if they can't, should get a proper mask (KN94, (K)N95, P100) and learn how to use it. COVID doesn't survive on surfaces very long, so reuse is more-or-less ok, and there were plenty of proper masks by June, which is when these facts were available. If WHO and CDC had listened to them.

I vape, so I can illustrate this to myself quite easily: I can hit the vape through a cloth mask, but not a KN94. And with any mask, I can take a hit, put it on, and exhale a visible cloud of, yep, aerosols, around the side of the mask.

I still wear a KN94 indoors, it's the best I can do. But I'm walking around in indoor spaces with no HEPA filters, surrounded by people who are unprotected, just wearing a talisman. This was preventable.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how your government handled things, but here they waited until it was clear that the healthcare system was going to implode if nothing was done to implement serious restrictions. If we had stopped travel, we would have hit that point maybe a week or two later. Travel is linear while community spread is exponential. In the end, given the incredible efficacy of lockdowns, the total amounts of deaths and in…

Couple of points: 1. Lockdown and travel restrictions are not the same. 2. Travel restrictions and reasonable public health safety measure are not exclusive. They only work in conjunction. I would argue that one of the most damaging things the EU did was take care of these things linearly. As an example German Pharmacies warned the Government of mask supply issues in February. Maybe even January. I know february beca…

You should re-read my original comment. I said that travel restrictions would not do anything unless the pandemic strategy was eradiction. If the strategy is to "flattien the curve", then there is essentially no effect from closing borders.

>1. Lockdown and travel restrictions are not the same.

Yes, this is the entire point of my argument.

>2. Travel restrictions and reasonable public health safety measure are not exclusive. They only work in conjunction.

This is not correct. Lockdowns work even without travel restrictions. Travel restrictions don't do much without lockdowns (and other non-pharmaceutical interventions).

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#107
post #55

I always wondered why people thought quicker lockdowns in Chyna would have stopped covid-19 from spreading since no one knew who was infected and a single person who escaped the country during the arbitrary quarantine would have made the whole thing pointless. I'm also confused why they think a virus with such a low death rate is important. The only thing I can think of is a shocking percent of people don't actually…

A pandemic like COVID-19 is never going to be about the deaths. Those that have died are a tragedy for all those who knew them, but for the most part death at these rates is only ever going to have a minimal impact on large societies. What is IS about is the impact of the disease on public health. You'll remember, perhaps, "flatten the curve". The biggest, scariest problem is not how many people die from COVID-19 (or…

Original submitter comment: This hits the spot.

> It's what happens when your public health system is overloaded. Every single thing that requires that system (i.e. more or less any healthcare situation that can't be resolved via teledoc or its equivalent) is now a potentially fatal situation. People die from COVID-19 because of the overload, but they would also die from car accidents, knife accidents, serious bacterial infections and more - all of which may have been successfully treated had the system not been overloaded.

It is believed that SARS-CoV-2 can easily mutate to evade current vaccines, and it is just a matter of time before it happens. People with chronic illnesses, along with the disabled, really need to be thinking in the very long-term, wherever they reside.

I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I live in Croatia, and I am culturally American. I hold dual citizenship in the US and the European Union (Croatia). I left for Croatia right at the start of the pandemic. I feel so lucky, and quite guilty, that my health has improved during the pandemic, thanks to Croatia. Many of my chronically ill and disabled American friends have become so much more sick during this pandemic. I am so worried for them, and I am fighting every single day for them.

The fear is real and will never go away: I now use a device that is much better and efficient than an N95 or KN95 mask when I am around people. It is called a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator) and the device filters out 99.8% of impurities. I will probably do this for the rest of my life, as getting sick is just not worth it. For people who have health issues, this is something to very seriously consider. You can easily die from having to defer medical care, and I cannot afford to be in that situation. That is why I decided to get a PAPR. Mine can be worn in a hospital bed, 24/7, including when lying down, and the battery lasts for 14 hours. You can also charge a spare battery while the PAPR is in use, and the PAPR that I have uses a standard USB-C charger, and the spare battery itself is inexpensive. The PAPR I have is called the Optrel Swiss Air [1]. It is a PAPR with a really nice mask form-factor, but it does not require a qualitative fit test (which N95 masks and other tight-fitting masks do) to ensure its seal and filtering capability. It filters 99.8% of impurities. Unfortunately, it does not have any source-control, as it has exhalation valves. But, I got a hoodie-styled balaclava which I put over the mask of the PAPR [2], for source control. This is probably the best PAPR to use if you are chronically ill and need protection long-term.

There is another PAPR worth looking into that is innovative and extremely cool looking, called the CleanSpace Halo [3]. It also has source control features [4][5], which makes it a good choice. However, it requires a qualitative fit test, to ensure proper fit, so filtration occurs at the guaranteed rate. But, the tight fitting mask affords it 99.97% filtration protection. You also have to be more careful when donning (putting on) the mask, to ensure that you have a proper seal, so that its filtration is guaranteed, for your safety, compared to the Optrel Swiss Air. It appears that you can use it lying down (but I am not sure). However, the seal of the mask (it is supposed to be a tight-fitting mask with a strong seal all the time--the Optrel Swiss Air does not have this issue) could be compromised very easily by lying down. So, the Optrel Swiss Air is probably a better choice, especially as it is does not require a tight seal. Also, the Optrel Swiss Air is a very small backpack device, so there is almost no weight on your neck, unlike the CleanSpace Halo. The CleanSpace Halo is extremely neat though!

[1] Optrel Swiss Air: https://optrel.us/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/swiss-air-folde...

[2] What I use for source control for the Optrel Swiss Air: https://www.etsy.com/listing/911933127/handmade-fleece-hoodi...

[3] CleanSpace Halo: https://cleanspacetechnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/...

[4] Official CleanSpace Halo Source Control Apparatus: https://cleanspacetechnology.com/healthusa/wp-content/upload...

[5] DIY 3D Print for CleanSpace Halo Source Control Apparatus: https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/various/cleanspace-halo-exha...

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#108

Man, all the WHO bashing comments are getting downvoted pretty quickly, except: - WHO took a _long_ time to declare a pandemic when member countries were asking for it. - WHO actively discouraged international border closures for containment. - WHO took way too long to declare aerosol transmission even when countries had identified it. In a global scale event like this, there's no individual country who should have b…

WHO did maintain from the beginning that transmission via aerosol was highly likely and possible. Although, I do agree that tweeting the study while still openly stating it is possible sends a contradictory message. One thing to not forget is that WHO is a global cooperation organization, and its power is derived solely from its member-states acceptance and cooperation. This means that they have to play the political game and weigh the consequences of their actions versus the benefits.

We have already seen multiple instances where leadership avoided testing to make the virus appear contained. Now imagine what countries would do early in the pandemic if they saw countries essentially sanctioned for trying to contain the virus. Did WHO make the right choice? I don't know, most likely not, but the world is not black and white. They should, however, rigorously go through their actions these past two years to see what they could have improved and what policies to put in place to prevent this from recurring again.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#109
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chain of references here is: IBTimes quotes "The Australian" newspaper. (Murdoch) "The Australian" quotes the book "The Unnatural Origin of SARS and New Species of Man-Made Viruses as Genetic Bioweapon". The above book is based on a discredited claim that the US engineered SARS as a weapon against China, which has now been twisted into a counter claim that China in turn engineered COVID against the US (see below)…

Your linked article at the Sydney Morning Herald opens with a blurb saying "The discredited theory that coronavirus is a bio-weapon created in a Wuhan lab is gaining new momentum". To be clear I am not making this claim. I am however, claiming the Chinese government had an interest in biological warfare, including weaponizing SARS, and that a lab leak related to SARS research (even without intent of biological weapon…

The mention of Murdoch was aimed at the chain of companies (centred around News Corp), not the person. The voting structure of News Corp is such that the Murdoch family has control, so News Corp and Murdoch (the family) are pretty well interchangeable terms from an editorial point of view.

The "Murdoch" press includes newspapers such as "The Australian" and "The Telegraph" in Australia, "Fox", "WSJ" and "New York Post" in the US, "Sky" and newspapers such as "The Sun" in the UK. They quote each other, as if they are independent sources (in this case the story in " The Australian" was first published in "The Telegraph"), but in reality they are all one source, with the Murdoch family exercising ultimate editorial control.

That's the background to the use of the term "Murdoch". It's not referring to the person but identifying a group of media companies that are effectively a single source.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was very early in the pandemic, I doubt that many people had masks early, and the problem of people hoarding was very real and medical professionals were having a lot of difficulty acquiring PPE. I think it was a difficult situation, I don't think they handled it the best they could have, but the response (in the context of massive amounts of hoarding) was understandable. I know that this will not be a popular t…

Half a year into the pandemic the president of the United States was filling stadiums was maskless supporters. The WHO seems completely willing to fall on their sword over COVID, and indeed they failed in many ways. But in the long run, we’re seeing a disaster of anti intellectualism around the world, and the next pandemic may be just as bad as this one.

And politicians were claims BLM protests across the entire country weren’t a big threat.

Suffice to say both sides love to “follow the science” when it supports their political views.

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