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Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

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Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think generally US has carried that role in past until 2016. Either by partnerships or by holding a gun to other people’s head, US has exercised a self preservation strategy which had some effect on remaining world. For eg. Obama admin had narrowed down Ebola and contained it[1]. That indirectly was beneficial for rest of the world. Unfortunately the last administration deserted from these responsibilities thereby…

> For eg. Obama admin had narrowed down Ebola and contained it[1]. It was great that they contained Ebola. But, containing a disease that makes you literally bleed from your eyes and requires bodily fluid contact and has an outbreak that starts in a low-density area of Africa, is much different than containing a disease where people who have the disease may only have a fever, and has airborne transmission, and the ou…

It should be noted that Ebola presents in many patients as a febrile illness, not the "Hotzone" image of Ebola - a presentation that is extremely common in that part of Africa.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half a year into the pandemic the president of the United States was filling stadiums was maskless supporters. The WHO seems completely willing to fall on their sword over COVID, and indeed they failed in many ways. But in the long run, we’re seeing a disaster of anti intellectualism around the world, and the next pandemic may be just as bad as this one.

> the next pandemic may be just as bad as this one. or worse. Keep the aerosol vector, but make it even more effective. Increase the effectiveness of surface transmission. Throw in greater resistant to surfactants (soap) and hand sanitizers. boom!

I always try to use HIV as my point of reference for COVID-19. We got off lucky by that measure. So maybe my pessimism is unfounded, but I really wish we had learned more lessons from HIV.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#73
post #3

“‘Global political leadership was absent,’ the independent experts said.” When has global political leadership ever not been “absent”? These are experts?

I will say it was conspicuously absent in this epidemic - if you ask a lot of epidemiologists, myself included, what the thing we most didn't expect about the epidemic, it's how aggressively a number of national governments, including the U.S., abdicated their usual role in response.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#74
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO bears no responsibility (better word: accountability) as it is comprised of member states who define and fund it, that do. Findings, medical experts, doctors come from member state contributions. Given conflicting reports, underreporting, unknowns, denials, how this virus transmits, this could only be handled better with crisis policies. The world didn't operate in crisis mode until now.

I think identifying pandemics is literally a defined responsibility of the WHO. Regarding which, the WHO-commissioned report states: "The WHO waited too long to declare a public health emergency of international concern, the panel said, after the reporting of an initial cluster of cases in December 2019."

What was reported from China, where people are fearfully in denial?

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#75
post #35

Man, all the WHO bashing comments are getting downvoted pretty quickly, except: - WHO took a _long_ time to declare a pandemic when member countries were asking for it. - WHO actively discouraged international border closures for containment. - WHO took way too long to declare aerosol transmission even when countries had identified it. In a global scale event like this, there's no individual country who should have b…

Also WHO told people not to wear masks and that it could actually make it more likely to get covid (CDC echoed this as well). “But it was justified lying to protect the mask supply!”—some people already had masks, and didn’t wear them because of this. I had someone literally get mad at me and block me because I said wearing a mask was obviously a good idea, and an N95 is more likely to protect you than a cloth mask.

And politicians were encouraging people to go out in the streets and gather en masse to celebrate / protest / whatever, denouncing border controls as racism, etc. Putting positive patients into nursing homes ill equipped to cope with it. It was a huge clusterf...

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#76
post #55

I always wondered why people thought quicker lockdowns in Chyna would have stopped covid-19 from spreading since no one knew who was infected and a single person who escaped the country during the arbitrary quarantine would have made the whole thing pointless. I'm also confused why they think a virus with such a low death rate is important. The only thing I can think of is a shocking percent of people don't actually…

A pandemic like COVID-19 is never going to be about the deaths. Those that have died are a tragedy for all those who knew them, but for the most part death at these rates is only ever going to have a minimal impact on large societies.

What is IS about is the impact of the disease on public health. You'll remember, perhaps, "flatten the curve". The biggest, scariest problem is not how many people die from COVID-19 (or even suffer from long COVID, or after effects of the infection).

It's what happens when your public health system is overloaded. Every single thing that requires that system (i.e. more or less any healthcare situation that can't be resolved via teledoc or its equivalent) is now a potentially fatal situation. People die from COVID-19 because of the overload, but they would also die from car accidents, knife accidents, serious bacterial infections and more - all of which may have been successfully treated had the system not been overloaded.

The fear of COVID-19 should never have been about how many were going to die of it (or even suffer long term issues). That's certainly bad enough. But the fear was a system overload, with the concomittant side-effects of that. COVID-19 is extremely contagious, was a novel virus that no human had immunity to, and requires hospitalization in enough cases that public health system overload was extremely likely (and has happened in many places around the world, at least for some period).

The various parts of societies responsible for messaging failed quite significantly at getting this message across. Your message is yet another example of that.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#77
post #27

Yeah, just don't do GoF research. Or don't let it escape from a lab. Or, don't lie about it when it does. Or, contain it if it does. Or shut down travel outside the country if it does. Or, don't cripple Australia with a trade war if they suggest an investigation into the origins of the disease are warranted. Or don't cancel people if they wonder if maybe it didn't come from nature. Or, do the audits to verify the lab…

Bioweapon? A new strain of virus that can mutate to unknown properties, and to which virtually nobody have immunity?

Even if it weren't developed as a weapon (I think the current theory is they were researching possible coronavirus vaccines) the WHO shouldn't be so complacent in letting China control the investigation.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#79
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese scientists discussed weaponizing SARS in 2015 ( https://www.ibtimes.com/explosive-report-says-chinese-scient... ).

The chain of references here is: IBTimes quotes "The Australian" newspaper. (Murdoch) "The Australian" quotes the book "The Unnatural Origin of SARS and New Species of Man-Made Viruses as Genetic Bioweapon". The above book is based on a discredited claim that the US engineered SARS as a weapon against China, which has now been twisted into a counter claim that China in turn engineered COVID against the US (see below)…

Your linked article at the Sydney Morning Herald opens with a blurb saying "The discredited theory that coronavirus is a bio-weapon created in a Wuhan lab is gaining new momentum". To be clear I am not making this claim. I am however, claiming the Chinese government had an interest in biological warfare, including weaponizing SARS, and that a lab leak related to SARS research (even without intent of biological weaponry) is a possibility. I feel like the article is opening with a strawman that doesn't represent the legitimate speculation many harbor regarding the WIV lab leak theory.

Now getting back to the article's actual content - I don't think the article makes a great case for dismissing the notion that the Chinese government was interested in biological weapons. One of its sources, Luke de Pulford, is quoted as saying about the paper/book, "What’s beyond doubt is the paper’s provenance. It’s legitimate and poses questions which deserve thorough probing." It goes on to note that Xu Dezhong, who authored the paper/book, is “not a fringe player”. "He held a senior position at the Air Force Medical University and reported to the Chinese Military Commission and Ministry of Health during the SARS epidemic in 2003." It then goes on to say "Conspiracy theories are regularly published in China, including by those connected with the government" to discredit what Dezhong has claimed. But that isn't evidence that Dezhong's claims are wrong - it amounts to saying "a nonzero number of people in China have said false things before, so therefore we cannot take the word of this military official".

All that said, it is entirely possible that China was not and is not interested in biological weapons, and that the source is untrustworthy and false. But we have to process this possibility using probabilities, since there are no definite answers proving or disproving anything here. Given that China's government took over Tibet, has been oppressing Hong Kong, operates concentration camps in Xinjiang, has built up various military capabilities as it threatens aggression against Taiwan, suppressed early reports of COVID-19, arrested journalists who reported on the virus, and denied visits to the Wuhan Institute of Virology for over a year, there is no reason to trust them or give them the benefit of the doubt on matters relating to SARS or COVID-19 or militaristic goals. As Homeland Security Committee member Ron Johnson is quoted in this article when asked about China preparing biological weapons, “Does that shock anybody? It certainly doesn’t shock me."

As a side note: your mention of Murdoch seems like an ad-hominem argument, using his name as a boogeyman to discredit this story. But that's not a substantive argument.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#80
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also WHO told people not to wear masks and that it could actually make it more likely to get covid (CDC echoed this as well). “But it was justified lying to protect the mask supply!”—some people already had masks, and didn’t wear them because of this. I had someone literally get mad at me and block me because I said wearing a mask was obviously a good idea, and an N95 is more likely to protect you than a cloth mask.

This was very early in the pandemic, I doubt that many people had masks early, and the problem of people hoarding was very real and medical professionals were having a lot of difficulty acquiring PPE. I think it was a difficult situation, I don't think they handled it the best they could have, but the response (in the context of massive amounts of hoarding) was understandable. I know that this will not be a popular t…

> medical professionals were having a lot of difficulty acquiring PPE

Weirdly, medical professionals were also being told not to wear masks. Multiple nurses were either fired or quit over the issue, because hospital policy didn't allow general mask-wearing out of a fear of scaring people:

https://www.wbrc.com/2020/03/23/nurse-claims-he-was-fired-we...

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85760

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/nurse-fired-wearing-mask...

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