Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations • Hacker News Board

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#101

Post by read_if_gay_ » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:48 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #92

iridium_core wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore also has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, at only 1.16 children per woman. Living in a controlled and apartment-dominated country seems to crush the desire and ability to have many children.

Why did you choose those two variables out of dozens of others? If it's 'control' then why is birthrate high in many dictatorships? If it's apartments, why is birthrate decent in many ex-soviet countries full of apartments?

Lack of birth control maybe? Or relatively uneducated women?

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#102

Post by gonehome » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:48 AM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #99

gonehome wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is another example of dismissing what they did without understanding it. As a result of this we now have less effective, higher privacy risk implementations in place.

And the alternative of not using them. I wasn't fundamentally opposed, but as discussion went the way to maybe mandate usage, I thought it more prudent to abstain. While technically there is nothing wrong with the implementation of Google or Apple, if they behave as specfified, I will not share any medical info with my smartphone as long as we do not have open systems in place. The problem is understood and not accep…

You can’t easily not use a lot of the data broker stuff that random apps use to resell your data. The data is sold without you noticing.

Maybe you’re cautious, but check the location services for apps on your phone - random third party apps may be selling it to brokers that then resell it to others. Even innocuous apps like free weather apps will do this sort of thing. [0]

Thankfully Apple’s OS updates are making this harder, but that’s relatively new.

The Bluetooth implementation doesn’t require you to input any medical data.

I agree that ubiquitous, free testing would have also helped. I think very high quality exposure notifications paired with quarantine would have been very effective too.

[0]: https://thenextweb.com/apps/2019/01/05/weather-apps-are-secr... (there was a better article on HN more recently, but I can’t remember the title).

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#103

Post by ignoramous » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:51 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #65

coldtea wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wasn't convenient for many players (from western to asian neighbors) to have a neutral tax-haven state in the area, it would have ended up like any small Asian/African/Latin American state.

I think of it as the Switzerland of Asia.

Switzerland of Asia would probably be the GCC countries: the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, and Bahrain. Singapore is more like Luxembourg/Monaco of Asia.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#104

Post by gonehome » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:54 AM UTC

throwaw999 wrote: post #95

gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

It's really optimistic to think mass rollout of Apple/Google protocol wouldn't be abused. Once government makes it compulsory to use such app in some scenarios (and society actually agrees to do that instead of protesting it en masse) it's over. There's nothing fundamentally stopping government from later changing the technical mechanism ("Please install our national app; it's more trustworthy than foreign megacorps"…

Apple/Google pushing their specific privacy preserving implementation of exposure notifications out via an OS update is not the same as a government mandating surveillance app installs.

The existence of the first does not lead to the second.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#105

Post by tomatocracy » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:54 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

The API/protocol is a good way of implementing the idea in a privacy-friendly way although I think everyone should have been clear that it is not as private as simply disabling Bluetooth or not carrying a phone. It is pretty benign. But being honest about that is important if for no other reason than to build trust.

However, the apps built on top of the API have (at least in some instances) clearly fallen victim of scope creep - eg the UK app came with venue check-in functionality (which then suddenly became legally mandated and there was no separate check-in app so you were out of luck if your phone didn't support the API or you didn't want to enable Bluetooth) and a function which tells you how "risky" your postcode is which you can't switch off. There was even brief talk about it being extended to include "vaccine passport" type functionality.

This was, sadly, predictable, and is why many people simply won't trust it.

The other issue with the app-based approach is that it sadly appears to be pretty useless. At least the UK app appears to notify for far too many contacts, large numbers of which are false alarms of one sort or another (neighbours, people sat in different offices, etc). While using Bluetooth proximity was a good idea, I think it's fair to say at this point that in the real world it just hasn't worked.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#106

Post by roenxi » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 10:54 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

Meh. If the Singaporian government thinks the police force should have contact tracing information then the police force shall have it. How v1 of an app was designed doesn't matter. Either Google folds and changes the design to suit or they move to a new app provider.

If it is acceptable to use the data for contract tracing for, what exactly is the argument that the government should be using data for contract tracing but not other law enforcement? I can imagine a few arguments, but they all seem weak. The contract-tracing-by-app can of worms shouldnh't have been opened.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#107

Post by hagibborim » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #60

hagibborim wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a logical fallacy, but it's still a fallacy.

You keep using this word "fallacy". I don't think it means what you think it means [1] (a) a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.: That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy. (b) a misleading or unsound argument. (c) deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness. (d) Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound. [1] to paraphrase "The…

This usage fits definitions a, b, and c. This very definition draws a distinction between a 'fallacy' and a 'logical fallacy'

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#108

Post by gonehome » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

tomatocracy wrote: post #105

gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

The API/protocol is a good way of implementing the idea in a privacy-friendly way although I think everyone should have been clear that it is not as private as simply disabling Bluetooth or not carrying a phone. It is pretty benign. But being honest about that is important if for no other reason than to build trust. However, the apps built on top of the API have (at least in some instances) clearly fallen victim of s…

I agree with you that relying on state/country cooperation to build the apps was part of the problem.

I don’t agree that it’s useless, 15min of close proximity to a confirmed positive COVID patient within the timeframe is the best possible determination of exposure and people should quarantine if they get it.

I could be persuaded that too many are notified if there’s decent evidence of it, but with the massive case load/spread in the UK right now - I’m more likely to suspect that amount of people exposed is massive.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#109

Post by pydry » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:01 AM UTC

poxwole wrote: post #31

Singapore is anyway a totalitarian state, Lee Kuan Yew was basically a "benevolent" dictator, if there is such a thing.

Singapore has democratic pressure points than it looks, and that's largely the reason why LKY acted "benevolently" where he did. He was essentially forced to. He was still a thug.

Firstly the fact that the leaders and all the population are squashed up against one another exerts a massive influence on the government. They're much more vulnerable to protest than other governments because they can't hide as easily. This makes them much more nervous and more willing to placate the populace than the government in, say, Myanmar, is.

Secondly they were competing with as well as trying to crush the communist Party. LKY co-opted a lot of their policies as well as trying to crush them. Note the essentially Soviet style housing and various effective social security systems. These were popular. This is a pattern that they have followed since (crush the opposition, steal their policies) and it helped fix their schooling system by bringing down class sizes in the 90s. Is that democracy? Kind of.

Singapore isn't proof that if you get the right dictator he can be benevolent. It's proof that the will of the people can be exerted through means other than the ballot box and that even a thug can do the right thing if he lives in fear.

Re: Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

#110

Post by gonehome » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:03 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #106

gonehome wrote: post #56

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN)…

Meh. If the Singaporian government thinks the police force should have contact tracing information then the police force shall have it. How v1 of an app was designed doesn't matter. Either Google folds and changes the design to suit or they move to a new app provider. If it is acceptable to use the data for contract tracing for, what exactly is the argument that the government should be using data for contract tracin…

I don’t disagree, Singapore specifically leans a little authoritarian and doesn’t really care about the privacy preservation. I was thinking more for countries that have stronger privacy protections or culture around individual rights.

In those countries a lot of people dismissed the Google/Apple approach without understanding it which lead to a privacy worse approach that’s also less effective.