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Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

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Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#101
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The percentage doesn't matter, but the example is clearly misleading on the relative tax revenue collected under the example. How does it provide a vertical integration incentive? Sales tax is only applied at the final step (or rebates if applied before that). The main integration incentive is the ability to reduce margin at each step (if needed) and have tighter supply chain control.

Did we read the same article? Let’s be explicit and instead of talking about sales tax which the article claims sometimes acts like VAT and sometimes like a gross receipts tax and instead use those terms explicitly. In the gross receipts tax regime, tax is applied at every boundary between businesses and so having fewer of these boundaries (ie being vertically integrated) gives a lower final price with workers receiv…

If you mean the poorly presented one, then yes.

The gross receipts structure is used instead of business income tax in some areas and is a separate thing from sales tax. Conflating the two doesn't help anything.

The author's link to support the structure that collects sales tax at every step is really gross receipts. Perhaps there's a better site with a good example and a link to a sales tax structure that exists as they depict it in this article. Even if it did work that way, the primary drivers for vertical integration would be the option to shrink the margins at each step and supply chain control (quality, moating, etc).

Is there an article discussing the differences in policies and rates of vertical integration between counties and the effects of it? It might be better to show that, rather than this article.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#102

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

Regarding resale tax exemptions: technically, yes! BUT the entity selling to a reseller needs to request and maintain a reseller license to prove that the sold goods went to a reseller with the intent of reselling. If you simply claim exemption from sales tax because you know you're selling to resellers, and don't manage reseller licenses, then you could be in for a world of hurt when audited (which happens much more frequently than it does with income taxes).

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#103
post #47

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

He also confounds costs with prices. Costs are not a significant factor in the prices of market goods - that is dominated by supply and demand.

The supply curve is determined to a large extent by costs, so this doesn't seem like as very helpful nitpick.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment to which you replied said you can deduct sales taxes paid against income taxes . I think this means that paying $10 would reduce your income tax by $3 (if income tax is 30%). This is different from getting a 100% credit ($10) which is what you'd get with a VAT system.

No, you don't get a 100% credit for VAT against your income taxes; the credit only exists as an offset against your VAT payable liability. If for some reason you can't offset your input VAT, then you get the same deduction against your income as you would for a sales tax, because it's part of your expenses. BUT NOTE: that if the acquired good is depreciated, then in both cases (VAT or sales tax) the tax-related deduc…

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you get a 100% credit against income taxes, only that you get a 100% credit. (The comment to which I replied seemed to think that GP's point - that sales tax can be deducted from income for income tax purposes - was equivalent to a credit for input VAT, which it's not.)

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really great explanation. I'm relatively new to the US, and the system of sales tax struck me as odd until I learned about the various reseller and other exemptions. The complexity (need for so many exemptions) suggests that the fundamental design may be flawed. If you have VAT, you can do with fewer rules.

VAT is more complicated than sales tax. Far, far more complicated. (I deal with VAT, sales tax, GST, CST, HST, and other consumption taxes as part of job.) The simplest form of consumption tax is the (Australian) GST: a flat 10% on almost all goods and services.

> VAT is more complicated than sales tax.

I'm curious - do you think this extra complexity is necessary (e.g. extra rules to reduce unintended effects), or is it implementation-specific?

> The simplest form of consumption tax is the > (Australian) GST: a flat 10% on almost > all goods and services.

But isn't Australian GST just a specific example of a VAT system? The Australian government says[0]:

"Generally, businesses and other organisations registered for GST will:

- include GST in the price they charge for their goods and services

- claim credits for the GST included in the price of goods and services they buy for their business."

This sounds exactly like a VAT.

[0] https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST/How-GST-works/

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#106
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to bookmark this as an example of how to clearly and specifically point out a bunch of issues with a source while maintaining a constructive tone. This type of comment makes HN the best forum for discussion on the Internet.

I agree with this. I wish there was more of it. However it seems to me like this is becoming more and more rare on HN or harder to find by being drowned out.

people have been saying this ever since I joined HN in 2009

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#107
VAT and other models are pure socialist and communist models. Sales tax as imposed by fly over states is correct way. Europe is lost cause. They haven't invented anything in last 70 years neither they have single technology company making heads spin. Communist, from where this author seems to be, only care of adding more taxes. I would say these people have some components of their brain misaligned. I am researching that now which component.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#108
I lead product for one of the leading US sales tax solutions, and have also built products automating EU VAT solutions. I came into these roles with little subject matter expertise, but with enthusiasm for making it easier for small businesses to thrive. So, take these inputs with that perspective, please.

VAT tax rate calculations are trivial, but filing returns is complex.

Sales tax calculations are complex, and so is filing returns. Also, the reseller tax exemptions are not easy (in fact, most tax audit fines come from poor records around tax exemption, not from collecting the wrong amount of tax). As someone operating a SaaS business in the US, I wish we had a VAT system.

It's also worth understanding that in many states, sales taxes are the primary way that local governments can directly generate revenues. To simplify the US tax system, we first need to solve how we equitably fund local governments.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#109

VAT and other models are pure socialist and communist models. Sales tax as imposed by fly over states is correct way. Europe is lost cause. They haven't invented anything in last 70 years neither they have single technology company making heads spin. Communist, from where this author seems to be, only care of adding more taxes. I would say these people have some components of their brain misaligned. I am researching…

Do you really think taxes == communism? Communism is a currency-less state.
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