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Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

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Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#91
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute percentage isn’t important. The problem is that when sales tax fails to work as a consumption tax, it gives a tax incentive to be vertically integrated. And there is implicitly a suggestion that encouraging companies to become more vertically integrated is not a desirable property of the tax system.

The percentage doesn't matter, but the example is clearly misleading on the relative tax revenue collected under the example. How does it provide a vertical integration incentive? Sales tax is only applied at the final step (or rebates if applied before that). The main integration incentive is the ability to reduce margin at each step (if needed) and have tighter supply chain control.

Did we read the same article?

Let’s be explicit and instead of talking about sales tax which the article claims sometimes acts like VAT and sometimes like a gross receipts tax and instead use those terms explicitly.

In the gross receipts tax regime, tax is applied at every boundary between businesses and so having fewer of these boundaries (ie being vertically integrated) gives a lower final price with workers receiving equal pay. In this way, the tax system incentives vertical integration.

In the VAT regime, the final price and total tax paid is the same whether or not the business is vertically integrated, and so the tax system doesn’t incentivise one option over the other.

The key point is that we first compare two competing business structures under the same tax system, and it turns out the tax rate doesn’t affect the argument so long as it’s positive, and then we compare how those structures relate to each other in different tax systems (where the rates don’t matter because they don’t change the relationship between the structures that both live under the same rate)

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#92

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

This is a really great explanation. I'm relatively new to the US, and the system of sales tax struck me as odd until I learned about the various reseller and other exemptions. The complexity (need for so many exemptions) suggests that the fundamental design may be flawed. If you have VAT, you can do with fewer rules.

VAT is more complicated than sales tax. Far, far more complicated. (I deal with VAT, sales tax, GST, CST, HST, and other consumption taxes as part of job.)

The simplest form of consumption tax is the (Australian) GST: a flat 10% on almost all goods and services.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#93

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

I disagree with this reading of the article. Perhaps the author edited the article after this comment but I see it structured as: 1. Small introduction briefly mentioning that while exemptions do exist for business inputs, tax systems often fail to have exemptions in all the cases that they ought to (ie the cases that would be exempt under a VAT regime), including four links to estimates of these failures 2. Mention…

[deleted]

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#94

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

I disagree with this reading of the article. Perhaps the author edited the article after this comment but I see it structured as: 1. Small introduction briefly mentioning that while exemptions do exist for business inputs, tax systems often fail to have exemptions in all the cases that they ought to (ie the cases that would be exempt under a VAT regime), including four links to estimates of these failures 2. Mention…

I can't imagine anyone would care, but if you'd like, you're welcome to browse the full commit history! :)

https://github.com/dyno-might/dyno-might.github.io/commits/m...

I didn't change the article between submitting and the time you made your comment. I did just add two paragraphs to the end of the "Before We Begin" section to try to clarify this point. (Your interpretation was what I intended.)

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Note that businesses can offset their VAT liability with the VAT they paid for services/goods received.) this is misleading, it's like saying you can get a salary as a worker. you get the salary. there is no "you can" the same is true for VAT, the amount you owe is the difference between the tax you paid for the service/goods you bought and the tax you collected when you sold. at the end of the month or what ever ot…

No, I specifically said "can" because you only get to offset input VAT if you satisfy the procedural requirements for doing so; it's not automatic. In contrast, output VAT is automatic and will be imputed by the taxing authority whether or not you file VAT returns.

There are no procedural requirements that i know of, it's how the VAT system works. The only difference is are you in VAT system or not (there are rules when you have to go in). If you are not in the system you cannot offset the VAT but you are not required to collect it also, so whatever you charge you keep . Please give me the example where you are required to collect but cannot offset. There are per countries some special cases, for some type of items, where the full amount will not be recognized but those are exceptions.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of goods that do have associated sales taxes that apply on any transfer, including some of the most expensive goods Americans buy. Particularly, in many jurisdictions, there are transfer taxes on houses and cars.

1. It doesn't mean that you can't change those selective sales taxes. We already have selective sales taxes active in the US. For example, I don't pay sales taxes on groceries. 2. Migrating over to VAT doesn't mean these taxes go away. 3. The only guaranteed consequence for switching to the VAT system is that taxes will become less transparent, so they will likely increase.

Of course. I only meant to point out that there are cases sales taxes apply to post-consumer transfers. I would be interested to know what fraction of post consumer sales transactions are indeed subject to sales taxes. You are correct that this does not make VAT inherently superior.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#97

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

Author here. I very much appreciate your polite tone! I'm aware that taxes on items for resale aren't treated like in the toy model. (This is mentioned in the article already.) Can you please take a look at this article and let me know if it changes your view: https://www.cost.org/globalassets/cost/state-tax-resources-p...

I think your VAT Regime illustration has a mistake. The $2.40 should be $3.60?

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#98
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Don’t most of us going into a store, find something, Google reviews, and competitors, and competitors’ reviews and then see if the convenience of being already here outweighs the effort of going somewhere else plus it’s marginal utility increase? Honestly, I’ve shifted a lot of my regular purchases into Amazon subscriptions.

Amazon is still a store though, unless you're exclusively buying Amazon brand products.

I suppose. I think it more as a delivery mechanism or ordering portal. A far number of my purchases are shipped by Amazon sold by someone else. I don't think of Amazon as doing the curation I think of when I think of a store. I guess maybe it's a bit of a middle ground.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#99
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is still a store though, unless you're exclusively buying Amazon brand products.

I suppose. I think it more as a delivery mechanism or ordering portal. A far number of my purchases are shipped by Amazon sold by someone else. I don't think of Amazon as doing the curation I think of when I think of a store. I guess maybe it's a bit of a middle ground.

Not 'I suppose', it's literally a store. It has its own payment processing, inventory, storefront, brands, etc.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this reading of the article. Perhaps the author edited the article after this comment but I see it structured as: 1. Small introduction briefly mentioning that while exemptions do exist for business inputs, tax systems often fail to have exemptions in all the cases that they ought to (ie the cases that would be exempt under a VAT regime), including four links to estimates of these failures 2. Mention…

I can't imagine anyone would care, but if you'd like, you're welcome to browse the full commit history! :) https://github.com/dyno-might/dyno-might.github.io/commits/m... I didn't change the article between submitting and the time you made your comment. I did just add two paragraphs to the end of the "Before We Begin" section to try to clarify this point. (Your interpretation was what I intended.)

I didn’t really have a problem with the article. I wonder if the issue is that the article looks too much like the (false) claim that sales tax always works like your example, which is refuted by pointing out the exemptions, rather than the claim that the exemptions don’t always work.

I can imagine that pointing out some (hypothetical) tax where rates aren’t marginal could get a similar reaction here (ie lots of “OP doesn’t understand marginal tax rates, but that’s ok because lots of people are stupid,” rather than “oh dear, that’s not a very good tax system, I wonder how that flaw slipped through.”)

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