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White Women Need Not Apply

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101–110 of 129 posts

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#101
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if we're all individuals, generalizations be damned.

Well, intersectionality doesn't go that far. First, not every difference counts as oppression. What does, that depends on... what the woke people agree on today (which may differ from what they agreed on yesterday or tomorrow). Race, gender, sexual orientation = yes. Being left-handed, or being poor = no. Being a demisexual, or otherkin = depends on whom you ask; probably yes in college, but no anywhere else. Disabil…

I surmised as much. Favouritism is another word for the same.

The problem with intellect is its need for reductionism. I understand there are strong feelings "supporting" the narratives as well, even if they don't really generalize to everyone.

The Middle Way looks more attractive than ever.

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#102
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if we're all individuals, generalizations be damned.

Well, intersectionality doesn't go that far. First, not every difference counts as oppression. What does, that depends on... what the woke people agree on today (which may differ from what they agreed on yesterday or tomorrow). Race, gender, sexual orientation = yes. Being left-handed, or being poor = no. Being a demisexual, or otherkin = depends on whom you ask; probably yes in college, but no anywhere else. Disabil…

> Being left-handed, or being poor = no

That's not true. Intersectionality takes those things into account, it's just that in US law those traits are not illegal to use discriminately. They should be, but they're not protected classes.

> Disability = generally yes, but not autism, because reasons.

That's also not true, being neurotypical is acknowledged as a factor that makes your life easier. Since autism is included in the definition of disability under US law, it is also a protected class.

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#103
post #34

Re: The podcast getting cancelled. This is what Amy Westervelt (who cancelled her) has to say. She also provides context on what lead to that decision and it wasn't just a random twitter fight. https://twitter.com/amywestervelt/status/1316923479011303424

Doesn't this kinda feed into the larger statement of the message about how a larger apology is required by the collective when someone stays allied to the current deplorable person for longer? From what I read, I still don't know what happened (I don't care, either); but, the discussion on Twitter is so devoid of details that nothing can be learned or obtained from it, except that the person now cancelled seems to co…

The article in this case seems to be a very bad source for the actual details and is much more concerned with painting a macro picture of woe. Reading the actual twitter thread and email exchange[1] plus this pretty helpful Westervelt thread, here's what I gather:

0. Roost has a history of having some racial blind spots in their field

1. Roost emails Sojwal to submit something that wasn't really what Sojwal was looking for, more or less as already made clear through public info.

2. Sojwal rejects rudely in frustration

3. Roost responds rudely, lacking contextual awareness

4. Sojwal responds in turn

....

5. Roost goes and complains about the rude rejection

6. Sojwal gets mad about this complaint out of context

7. Roost digs in and then attempts to report to Twitter

Step 0 and Step 7 are the keys here it seems, and Westervelt added a lot of important context for me. This was a straw that broke the camel's back for Roost it appears, not an isolated incident. Reporting someone on twitter for a personal spat at best from a misunderstanding is not putting Roost in any sort of decent light, and her prior context doesn't appear to have earned her any goodwill.

I know nothing of either until reading this either. I suspect Sojwal's response was anger out of frustration. Rude, absolutely. But I think reading what the org is about [2] really sheds light that it would be clear this isn't an outlet looking to publish stuff from Roost. If Roost read that before responding and took a second, this response [3] would probably have not been a good idea. While the original rejection is rude, I actually don't see the "assumptions" that Roost is trying to defend, and that backhanded apology isn't going to sit well with anyone. She didn't even need to apologize, but the apology + you're wrong about me (along with the submitted piece's perspective) doesn't look good. And then that's where the prior history comes in for the dominos after.

Roost had many points they could have dropped this at and didn't, which seems to me like it was a common issue from Westervelt's thread. Westervelt doesn't seem to be caught to me so much as disappointed in a friend they were trying to help, who seemed to just refuse to learn. Both, but more disappointment than posturing.

To be clear, this is far from cut and dry and I can very much understand why there are so many confused or hesitant commenters. It took me a decent deal of digging and nuance to get this picture of what happened. This all could have been avoided, and this 100% seems to be twitter drama that escalated needlessly, and certainly may be reflective of some negative parts of this world we're getting a glimpse into that an article like this could have critiqued with nuance. But to me, the issue is far from what this piece seems to diagnose. To make this about cancel culture and the title, "White Women Need Not Apply", misses the point, just as Roost did with what originally went wrong.

[1] https://twitter.com/senti_narwhal/status/1316379426892984320

[2] https://aaww.org/about-us/

[3] https://twitter.com/senti_narwhal/status/1316379426892984320...

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#104
post #64
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justification is "it's okay to punch up, just not punch down"

One might argue that pragmatically being a member of a group that it's unacceptable to punch is superior to being a member of one that it is. For example historically in pretty much every culture the persons of civil and religious officials have been inviolate. The modern USA culture of contempt for leadership is clearly unsustainable and thus it will end. A Chinese colleague told me a joke a few years ago. "An Ameri…

> A Chinese colleague told me a joke a few years ago. "An American asked a Chinese, 'how does it feel to not be able to publicly criticize your President?' And the Chinese replied, 'How does it feel to not be able to publicly support yours?'"

Gonna put on my pedantic buzzkill hat for a second. I do actually find that joke to be funny, but it hides potential discussion of real differences behind a pithy comment.

Being jailed for criticizing your president is much much worse than suffering social backlash for supporting a president that your chosen community has judged to be bad.

Depriving someone of their freedom through legal force is not the same thing as people getting mad at you on the internet (even if that anger causes you to get fired).

> The modern USA culture of contempt for leadership

Give me leaders who aren't contemptuous and then we'll talk. They do exist, on both sides of the aisle, even though they sometimes seem to be in short supply these days.

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#105

1) If people are really interested in the topic, they should read the source material and draw their own conclusions. I thought the article's characterization of Westervelt's tweet was incorrect. The author claimed that Westervelt "inadvertently revealed how the fear of being tarred by association motivated (Westervelt) to turn on (Roost)". Instead, Westervelt's opinion comes across as more nuanced. 2) I am happy I k…

I agree with your point about the mischaracterization of Westervelt's tweet, after reading some longer explanations from her on Twitter.

However, I do think it's notable that she'd had repeated, recurring problems with Roost in the past but didn't actually do anything firm about it until there was a big public brouhaha that could make her look bad if she didn't do anything. That doesn't absolve Roost from any blame here, but I think it does suggest that Westervelt's motivation for cutting Roost loose was at least partly informed by a desire to not suffer backlash herself.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but let's not pretend that everyone here is doing things solely for the right reasons.

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#106
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the "doesn't accept articles from white women" is just a clickbait statement -- the group she posted to is "Asian American Writers Workshop". It's not "anti-white" -- its just an Asian targetted group.

Now make a "White Writers Workshop" and see how long that lasts. The issue isn't this workshop being anti-White, it's the entirety of Western culture.

We've banned this account.

Everybody else: could you please follow the site guidelines and flag egregious comments rather than feeding the trolls?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#107

I thought everyone was supposed to read Nathanial Hawthorne’s “Scarlet Letter” in high school. Maybe it should return to being required reading.

The message was very easily missed because the story doesn't actually start until halfway through the book. Most of our class had already given up on the book by that point.

There's a movie based on it called Easy A [0], set in highschool, that gets across a similar message except it actually works because it's a comedy that keeps you interested.

(And I only say "similar" instead of "the same" because although I can remember what the A was, I can't remember anything about the narrative in The Scarlet Letter)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_A

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally not, by definition. You cannot be racist to white people. They are the oppressors. Words mean things.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

If you keep posting unsubstantive and/or flamewar comments to HN and ignoring our requests to stop, we are going to have to ban you.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#109
post #34

Re: The podcast getting cancelled. This is what Amy Westervelt (who cancelled her) has to say. She also provides context on what lead to that decision and it wasn't just a random twitter fight. https://twitter.com/amywestervelt/status/1316923479011303424

Let's say we take Westervelt's tweet thread as the unvarnished truth. Some observations about that:

Westervelt noticed problems with Roost but tried to gently correct those and give her second chances.

Westervelt noticed problems that were recurring: that is, even after being nudged and given a second chance, Roost made the same mistakes more than once.

Roost now does something that ended up being very public. Now, finally, conveniently, Westervelt decides this is the last straw, and cuts her loose.

I'm not saying Roost is a saint, or that Westervelt is being disingenuous. In general, people try to do the best they can with the information they have at the time. But I think it likely that Westervelt's decision was also influenced by the fact that this storm was public and heated, and if she'd done nothing, that might have blown back on her. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but let's at least acknowledge that's what could have (and IMO probably) happened.

Re: White Women Need Not Apply

#110
post #43

Honestly, I think the furries have it right, at least in concept. (I know a surprising many of them.) They've solved racism and sexism by abandoning the vestiges of these notions altogether. I wish the real world was just as blind. Why do people have to behave like the tribalistic great apes we descended from? It's 2020 and we have rockets that travel to Mars and beyond. So many people love to bully...

Explain Nazi Furs.
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