Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#101

Post by gonzo41 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #82

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Tesla killing F1 is a conclusion too far. The success of electric vehicles makes the calculus less good, but it's just another term in the equation for a company doing business in F1. Honda are still in other ICE motorsports. I think it's worth pointing out that Honda staying this long was a surprise in itself because, to be blunt, they were absolutely awful in their first years and no better than their rivals now. A…

Shouldn't F1 cars be about finding the peak of a X engineering problem. For electiric's it's not as much about speed but battery. Maybe having hyper-miler distance races that aren't speed oriented is the sort of pivot F1 should be doing? I know it's not sexy like a fast car moving nimbly among the pack but if car companies can get their tech focused on getting the most distance from a battery then there's the cross over development that can flow to the mainstream.

But I know, watching a slow race is a big ask.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#102

Post by lmm » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

zebrafish wrote: post #64

wombatmobile wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the automobile market transitioning to EV, it is inevitable that F1 will be rebooted as an EV contest. Expect Honda to re-enter then, particularly if MotoGP goes EV first.

Formula E already exists. As a PR play, other power unit manufacturers may follow Honda. Volkswagen put a lot of pressure on them with their announcement last year. However, I don’t think (and hope) that ICE racing will go anywhere. The engineering challenges and reliability challenges are part of racing that EVs remove from the equation. I don’t understand why EVs can’t have their place as personal and commercial ve…

> I don’t understand why EVs can’t have their place as personal and commercial vehicles and racing can keep ICEs in competition vehicles.

I'm sure ICE racing will continue in one form or another, but Formula 1 is enormously expensive; manufacturers justify it in terms of the prestige it brings them and the R&D work that can trickle-down into road cars. If the engine technology is completely different then both of those benefits become a lot more questionable.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#103

Post by lmm » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

mlindner wrote: post #53

csours wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, right now F1 has hybrid engines. Is there a power mix they can't cross before they infringe on Formula E? Or is it just literally, has to have an engine on board? Racing teams have never been shy about running right up to the edge of defined rules, and also running wild in undefined areas.

I'd assume the dividing line is what type of motor drives the wheels directly.

Current-F1 KERS drives the wheels directly AIUI.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#104

Post by pbronez » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:02 AM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #55

znkynz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether you can make a car that is good or not is a factor of budget you can spend on engineering teams This has been true since the 1970s.

Not to the degree seen in F1 since the start of the turbo hybrid era. Scrappy underdog teams could score wins with creative, out of the box thinking that was possible with a small budget. Today the only time you see a team with a budget less than Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull winning is because of some act of god during the race.

Seems to me that should be ok to have a class where teams can throw money at it without real limits. Sure, that shouldn’t be everything, but if they want F1 to be the fastest, fanciest stuff possible, restricting investment to improve competitiveness doesn’t seem like a great move.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#105

Post by toyg » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

Thaxll wrote: post #9

Haha Red Bull, back to Renault.

I actually think we'll see a bit of shuffling and RedBull will end up with either an official Mercedes engine (i.e. Mercs will drop Will-- sorry, one customer, to replace them with RBR) or a funky rebranded not-officially-X-but-basically-the-same engine. Horner and Marko seem to have burnt "one bridge too far" with Renault, Renault themselves suggested that they would take RedBull as customer only as a last resort and if forced by the rules.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#106

Post by ish » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

dokem wrote: post #100

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Aren’t there rules imposed in F1 to keep the technology relevant to industry? Why can’t F1 evolve towards electric with new rules?

Formula E has a 25 year-long exclusive license for single seaters on electric. That doesn't rule out the possibility of a merger happening at some point in the future.

[https://www.racefans.net/2020/06/18/formula-1-formula-e-merg...]

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#107

Post by sasaf5 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

gonzo41 wrote: post #101

mhh__ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla killing F1 is a conclusion too far. The success of electric vehicles makes the calculus less good, but it's just another term in the equation for a company doing business in F1. Honda are still in other ICE motorsports. I think it's worth pointing out that Honda staying this long was a surprise in itself because, to be blunt, they were absolutely awful in their first years and no better than their rivals now. A…

Shouldn't F1 cars be about finding the peak of a X engineering problem. For electiric's it's not as much about speed but battery. Maybe having hyper-miler distance races that aren't speed oriented is the sort of pivot F1 should be doing? I know it's not sexy like a fast car moving nimbly among the pack but if car companies can get their tech focused on getting the most distance from a battery then there's the cross o…

> watching a slow race is a big ask.

Above non-ridiculously low speed wouldn't the relative speed among cars be more important for entertainment?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#108

Post by CWuestefeld » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #95

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

F1 technology is a lot more than just power-trains, I wish people would understand that better. Fuel chemistry, aerodynamics, functional simulation, driver ergonomics, safety dynamics, tire chemistry, metallurgy, analytics, data recording, composites, suspension, real-time telemetry and communication, digital systems management.. the list goes on forever. If the device/technique/procedure wasn't invented by F1, it wa…

Anybody in tech, and especially information technology, should be able to find something fascinating in F1. Winning an F1 race requires a huge amount of data processing, both for the operation of the race car itself, as well as for the simulations of race strategy in realtime.

The teams bring enormous amounts of equipment to each race. Obviously a lot of that equipment is wrenches, screwdrivers, and related machinery. But every team is bringing essentially a portable datacenter to each race:

The car has around 300 sensors and the SECU monitors over 4,000 parameters. During the course of a typical race the car will transmit around 3 GB of telemetry data as well as around 4 GB of logging, however this is just the seed for computation. When processed and combined with other sources such as audio and video analysis it can mean a team leaves a typical race weekend with over a terabyte of valuable data — data that is drawn on again and again before and during future events and seasons. -- https://www.eetimes.com/the-importance-of-electronics-in-for...

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#109

Post by smhost » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

dokem wrote: post #100

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Aren’t there rules imposed in F1 to keep the technology relevant to industry? Why can’t F1 evolve towards electric with new rules?

In "As We Go Green", the guy who founded Formula E made it seem like there was some internal politics among FIA leadership that was resisting green tech for whatever reason, and now that Formula E is a thing, it doesn't make sense for F1 to try to catch up.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#110

Post by GhostVII » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

I think there problem is that it's just boring to watch because they are so fast - it is extremely hard to pass without hacks like DRS, which makes F1 races really boring to watch. And I'm sure most fans would much rather switch back to the v10 engines even though they are more "obsolete", a conventional powertrain doesn't make them any more boring to watch (it actually makes them more exciting imo).

And if battery technology is ever good enough to last a full F1 race without adding tonnes of extra weight, I'm sure they will switch over to electric. Powertrain isn't the main focus of F1, teams are quite limited in what they can do there.