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'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

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Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#101

Post by bjt »

Having grown up in Utah, and living there now, I agree with the assessment of self reliance being emphasized much more here than other places I've lived (England, California).

When thinking about causality though, it seems to me like a mistake to leave out the Mormon influence. It's not just Utah, but Mormons founded many towns in Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, and Nevada as well. Distrust of the federal government was frequently and explicitly taught by church leaders into the early 1900s.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#102

Post by jschwartzi »

sandworm101 wrote: post #98
mbostleman wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, for what it's worth, we have really good helicopter support in this region too. Both medical transport as well as short haul / wilderness extraction. So response can be a lot faster if necessary.

Helicopters are tricky things. They move very quickly but from call to helicopter taking off can often be a long time. Even in the military/coast guard context, the process of authorizing a flight, turning a helicopter on, and actually getting the thing in the air can easily take 30+ minutes.

I was told once when doing a WFA practicum that if search and rescue were called it would take several hours before I could expect to see a helicopter or have a team at the trailhead. This is mostly because it's a volunteer organization and whoever is at the phone doing dispatch has to call people and get them to go from where they're at to the headquarters to get gear, and then from there to wherever they're needed. Because of typical weather conditions in Washington it's also not unusual for the helicopter to not be able to take off or search. So a medical emergency on a day hike or climb could easily turn into a frantic overnight in the backcountry.

So you have to be able to control arterial bleeds and take care of lots of stuff that in the city you may not need to worry about because an ambulance will be there in 30 minutes.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#103

Post by throw0101a »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #86
sandworm101 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> 30 minutes from the nearest EMS In even the most developed inner cities of the US, a 30-minute response time is not unusual. A car crash with injuries, blood on the street, would certainly be top of the 911 priority list other factors like traffic often mean delays. "In July 2019, it took the NYPD more than 20 minutes on average to respond to all of its 911 calls. This July, it was about 18 minutes." https://www.n…

So, part of that is that even when an ambulance gets there, what happens next? The nearest hospital in rural areas is guaranteed to not be even a level II trauma center. So it takes 30 minutes for an ambulance to get on-scene, then maybe it's an hour drive to a trauma center (optimistic), or they're going to need to get a helicopter, which can easily be another 40 minutes of waiting. That urban EMS crew might be shoo…

> So, part of that is that even when an ambulance gets there, what happens next? […] Out in the boondocks, the golden hour is laughable.

In the province in Ontario, where we have a few density populated communities often surrounded by large stretches of wilderness, folks are transported by helicopter in emergencies:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_ambulance

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_medical_services

* https://sunnybrook.ca/content/?page=rooftop-helipad

If you look at the list of heliports in the province, you'll see quite a number of them are at hospitals:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Heliports_in_Ontario

Including ones, like St. Mike's and Sick Kids, in high density areas where they're often at the top of high-rise towers:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OtDwkg-jGI

There are also non-emergency patient transportation services:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornge

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#104

Post by mbostleman »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #96
mbostleman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last night I was on my way home on a relatively remote stretch in eastern Idaho that's 30 minutes from the nearest EMS and came upon a head on collision that just happened. Several others not involved surrounded the scene pretty quickly and started assessing the injured. I literally finished my Wilderness First Aid certification Saturday afternoon.

Those wilderness medicine classes are awesome. Highly recommend keeping going for Wilderness First Responder. It's really, really fun.

For sure. I'm looking in to a WFR that can be done on nights and weekends instead of 2 weeks off work.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#105

Post by sandworm101 »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #86
sandworm101 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> 30 minutes from the nearest EMS In even the most developed inner cities of the US, a 30-minute response time is not unusual. A car crash with injuries, blood on the street, would certainly be top of the 911 priority list other factors like traffic often mean delays. "In July 2019, it took the NYPD more than 20 minutes on average to respond to all of its 911 calls. This July, it was about 18 minutes." https://www.n…

So, part of that is that even when an ambulance gets there, what happens next? The nearest hospital in rural areas is guaranteed to not be even a level II trauma center. So it takes 30 minutes for an ambulance to get on-scene, then maybe it's an hour drive to a trauma center (optimistic), or they're going to need to get a helicopter, which can easily be another 40 minutes of waiting. That urban EMS crew might be shoo…

That depends on the nature of the ambulance service. In the US/Canada, ambulances cover basic stabilization and transport the nearest trauma center. We in NA have a culture whereby minimally-equipped ambulances are tasked to deliver patients to hospitals asap. That approach isn't universal, nor is it necessarily the best. In France, some ambulances bring docs with them to do things beside the road that in the US would only be attempted at a trauma center. That could mean stopping the ambulance by the road so the doc can work. Helicopters also act differently, often taking the patient not to the nearest hospital but to the one that is best equipped for the case (ie the one with an MRI for suspected stroke).

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#106

Post by [deleted] »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #51

In many parts of the United States when you call 911, you're lucky if anyone shows up within an hour. It's a couple hours to get to a Wal-Mart or a store. It's difficult to get anyone to drive 40 minutes outside the nearest town and navigate unmarked dirt roads to do basic plumbing or home repairs. As a result, people have to learn to repair things, make things, use a gun, do first aid, lay shingles, hang drywall, po…

[deleted]

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#107

Post by AnimalMuppet »

nickpinkston wrote: post #92
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah is not West Coast. As rosseloh said, it's the West. (And I agree - I draw the line at Denver.) I don't agree with "Midwest" where people place it on the east side, though. Take Pittsburgh, for instance. Look at a map , people. It's not "west", and it's not even "mid". It's East. "Mid" starts at Chicago. (Pittsburgh was once midwest, but it's not 1870 any more.)

Culturally though, The Pittsburgh area (as resident of 10+ years) is caught between the East / Midwest, but the rural areas North and West feel solidly in the Midwest culture to me. Very different from all parts East.

That's fair. And rural Indiana or Ohio feels similar to rural Iowa. So... there's geography, and there's culture. Geographically, the term feels wrong to me for someplace that far east, but culturally, maybe it still fits.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#108

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

nostrademons wrote: post #47
briga wrote: post #8

The early settlers of North American were in some sense selected by personality. It must have taken a certain sort of risk-taking personality to give up everything and climb aboard a crowded rickety passenger ship for a month-long journey to a vast and mostly uninhabited land. The people who arrived in America and decided to take it one step further by moving away from the crowded cities of the east into the vast and…

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed

My recollection of that book is that it doesn't really cover the settling of the west, and is more focused on the earlier arrivals who spread out to cover the land between (say) the Atlantic and the Mississippi.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#109

Post by phobosanomaly »

lostphilosopher wrote: post #80
pnathan wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many parts of the United States when you call 911, you're lucky if anyone shows up within an hour. It's a couple hours to get to a Wal-Mart or a store. It's difficult to get anyone to drive 40 minutes outside the nearest town and navigate unmarked dirt roads to do basic plumbing or home repairs. That's pretty far out; I think that's pretty extreme. At least in Idaho/WA IMO (different geography and settlement pat…

Another important factor is not just distance geography, but the population density's impact on taxes and funding for Police/EMS/Fire. Maybe from a geo perspective someone can get there faster, but if there are only a couple "someones" and they are already dealing with something else... Statistically, less people, fewer emergencies, but that's not much comfort when you're the one having a statistically unlikely emerg…

1,000% this. I worked on ambulances in a fairly urban area, and even there the number of times we were at 'level zero,' or no available units for dispatch was unsettling to say the least.

Re: 'Wild West' mentality lingers in modern populations of US mountain regions

#110

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

briga wrote: post #8

The early settlers of North American were in some sense selected by personality. It must have taken a certain sort of risk-taking personality to give up everything and climb aboard a crowded rickety passenger ship for a month-long journey to a vast and mostly uninhabited land. The people who arrived in America and decided to take it one step further by moving away from the crowded cities of the east into the vast and…

I have read that one of the strong selection factors for the settling of the west was the ability to survive beaver fever (giardiasis). Some have speculated that this may have correlations with personality traits.
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