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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#101

Post by mulmen »

bogomipz wrote: post #56
mulmen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.

This was the certainly the case in the Gardner Museum heist in Boston in the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museu... https://news.artnet.com/art-world/gardner-heist-suspect-rele...

Thanks, I was familiar with the anecdote but couldn't remember the source. I did a quick search but didn't find it. I thought it may have happened with a major drug dealer as well? Not sure on that.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#102

Post by acdanger »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

I've read that often art thieves are effectively ransoming their stolen art in hopes the victimized museum's pay up.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#103

Post by colinmhayes »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Paintings are insured. Thieves should be able to sell the paintings back to insurance companies for 10% of their value right?

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#104

Post by reaperducer »

joncalhoun wrote: post #65
crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

These aren't paintings that are on display to the public after they're stolen. They're kept in houses and families for generations, and by then, time has laundered their provenance. If you read art news, it's not uncommon for museums to have paintings donated to them by the grandchildren of the person who bought the painting, only to learn half a century later that the painting was stolen.

And if someone doesn't like their stolen painting after a while, there are plenty of dealers who will hook you up with a similarly amoral buyer. The fee is higher, to go with the risk.

There's an entire class of rich people who sometimes go by the label "globalist" who believe they are above national laws, and nations, themselves. They see themselves as "citizens of the world" and sometimes even think they shouldn't need passports to travel because their egos tell them they're so fabulous, and have the money to back it up.

I read a magazine or newspaper article about it last year. Many of them attend that big meeting of super-rich people and the politicians they've bought in Davos each year.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#105

Post by enriquto »

ISL wrote: post #97
jagger27 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?

The ethics of such a practice would be dubious at best.

Why? This is just like selling high-quality prints of the paintings, which is already done and nobody complains about.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#106

Post by jagger27 »

ISL wrote: post #97
jagger27 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?

The ethics of such a practice would be dubious at best.

I don’t see why if they’re clearly indicated as clones.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#108

Post by notahacker »

retrac wrote: post #28
wmkn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a van Gogh that would never work. No legitimate art dealer would touch it. Regardless of the amount of time in between.

Give it enough time, and will anyone even know who the rightful owner is supposed to be? I have a feeling van Gogh's fame will probably outlast the Netherlands, let alone a claim of legal ownership by one museum.

I don't think many people acquire stuff on the basis it might be easily resellable to people who aren't criminals around the point the Netherlands and its national museums cease to exist.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#109

Post by op03 »

oneplane wrote: post #48
op03 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans have a long track record of looting priceless things. Before it used to be from other countries.

Once upon a time the Europeans even looted an entire continent and murdered many of the people that already lived there, named it America and said it was theirs now and went on to live there. Or was that not what you were after?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_(cultural_heritag...

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2019/jun/21/british-muse...

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/return-stolen-treasure...

https://www.history.com/news/british-museum-stolen-artifacts...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#110

Post by saluki »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Check out The Thomas Crown Affair (1999), the classic is good too.

Interesting fictional perspective on the super wealthy and thinking they can have anything they want. legal or not. I expect it's not far from reality for some.

"I love my haystacks."

Great movie.

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