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Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

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Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#101

Post by lsiebert »

crusty wrote: post #74
rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt. No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong. > Where the debt comes from…

"Though in arrears on fines and court fees, many didn’t need to pay restitution at all—at least 20 percent of them were convicted of drug possession." This whole line of argument about the use of the term debtors' prison not being accurate because of the circumstances of this one individual, as if her situation were the only being considered is so useless. Stop trying to detail the focus with the distraction. She was…

In any case I think people are ignoring the 8th amendment's prohibition the excessive fines, which applies to the states per supreme court ruling (Timbs vs. Indiana).

The prohibition on excessive fines has it's roots in the Magna Carta. (quoting from the Timbs vs. Indiana Supreme Court decision) "...Magna Carta required that economic sanctions "be proportioned to the wrong" and "not be so large as to deprive [an offender] of his livelihood."

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#102

Post by roenxi »

coldtea wrote: post #94
rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt. No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong. > Where the debt comes from…

> No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. A society that puts people in jail for not having $13000 to pay is not a "functioning society". > Because a debt arising from a criminal conviction requires the convicted person to have engaged in a wrongful act in the first place. Mere failure to p…

So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? Am I in the clear now? There has to be some escalation of punishment for people who won't pay fines or the incentives suggest they just don't pay.

Debtors prisons don't make sense for normal debts, but a fine for embezzlement is not the same thing at all. The $13,000 isn't really a debt as much as it is a punishment. The real question is whether the corrections system passed up an effective opportunity to garnish normal wages - but I can imagine a lot of practical issues with that approach.

I've little doubt the situation in Mississippi is dodgy, but these aren't debtors prisons. These are strange ordinary prisons.

EDIT Hah, nevermind turns out I didn't know what a debtors prison was. Thanks fenomas.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#103

Post by lsiebert »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #60
rtpg wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wage garnishing is easy? If you have an employer then now they are on the hook for following through as well. Hell, shut down the restitution centers and use that budget to help cover court fees instead! Think about it: if someone gets fined $10,000 and is working minimum wage, is there really anything good accomplished by trying to recover that much? Just cap out some wage garnishment scheme if you want to fine them…

The criminal has an actual victim who needs his money back. It's pretty important to him (or her) that he gets his money back. Maybe she could pay the restitution with the money she embezzled. She also skipped her meeting with her probation officer, more than once, and she didn't report to the probation officer (or the court, whatever) that she got an increase in income, when she got her job at Harrah's. Funny, that.…

Per the article, most of the money wasn't used for restitution, and many individuals are arrested for merely not paying fines and fees, no restitution given.

That's just criminalizing being poor.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#104

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

> But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?

Yeah, this isn't debtors prison; it is penal slavery.

Not that it makes it any better.

> The EU Convention on Human Rights bans debtors prisons

It unconditionally (unlike the US Constitution) bans slavery, too.

I'm not sure what bearing “The EU Convention on Human Rights bans...” has on the facts here; not only does the Convention not apply here, but even if it did what the law prohibits has no bearing on what the facts actually are.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#105

Post by dragonwriter »

roenxi wrote: post #102
coldtea wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. A society that puts people in jail for not having $13000 to pay is not a "functioning society". > Because a debt arising from a criminal conviction requires the convicted person to have engaged in a wrongful act in the first place. Mere failure to p…

So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? Am I in the clear now? There has to be some escalation of punishment for people who won't pay fines or the incentives suggest they just don't pay. Debtors prisons don't make sense for normal debts, but a fine for embezzlement is not the same thing at all. The $13,000 isn't really a debt as much as it is a punishment. The real question is…

> So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine?

If you refuse; the assets should be seized from you and the fine paid that way.

If you are unable to, then the fine is, ipso facto, excessive.

In either case penal slavery is not an appropriate answer.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#106

Post by dragonwriter »

toasterlovin wrote: post #53
dfsgioninio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has the single highest incarceration rate in the world. In that respect, we have the worst criminal justice system in the world. Other metrics matter, of course, but let's not kid ourselves: the American system is an unmitigated disaster.

I see several comments complaining about the US incarceration rate without mentioning the US crime rate. You can’t credibly assert that the US incarceration rate is too high without knowing how it compares to the crime rate.

> I see several comments complaining about the US incarceration rate without mentioning the US crime rate.

The former is a major cause of the latter.

> You can’t credibly assert that the US incarceration rate is too high without knowing how it compares to the crime rate.

The incarceration rate is too high, in part, because it drives the crime rate.

It's also too high because it's historically largely a product of criminal justice policies adopted as a direct replacement for chattel slavery as a tool of racial suppression and which have continued to this day with that effect, having spread beyond the region which had chattel slavery to replace to the whole nation.

This is particularly true of penal slavery.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#107

Post by alphabettsy »

ecoled_ame wrote: post #97
Zircom wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they believe it "just happens", but they accept it/believe it's a natural and inevitable part of life and take it in stride if and when it happens.

It’s weird to live in a society where the assumption is that practically everybody is having/should be having sex. I abstain.

It’s what all animals do, why is it weird?

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#108

Post by Clubber »

ShroudedNight wrote: post #68

> The Mississippi Department of Corrections, or MDOC, repeatedly declined our requests to visit the restitution centers and to discuss them with state officials. But in a statement issued in late December in response to our findings, the department noted that it follows state law when operating the restitution program. If this program were one of integrity and justice, it should not have a problem exposing its comple…

Sadly, this happens in a lot of states. If you owe a fine and don't pay it because you can't, they'll keep tacking on interest until it reaches a certain limit, then throw you in jail.

Our current state of government scares the hell out of me.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#109

Post by coldtea »

roenxi wrote: post #102
coldtea wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. A society that puts people in jail for not having $13000 to pay is not a "functioning society". > Because a debt arising from a criminal conviction requires the convicted person to have engaged in a wrongful act in the first place. Mere failure to p…

So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? Am I in the clear now? There has to be some escalation of punishment for people who won't pay fines or the incentives suggest they just don't pay. Debtors prisons don't make sense for normal debts, but a fine for embezzlement is not the same thing at all. The $13,000 isn't really a debt as much as it is a punishment. The real question is…

>So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? Am I in the clear now?

No, there's forfeiture for that.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#110

Post by SamReidHughes »

dragonwriter wrote: post #105
roenxi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? Am I in the clear now? There has to be some escalation of punishment for people who won't pay fines or the incentives suggest they just don't pay. Debtors prisons don't make sense for normal debts, but a fine for embezzlement is not the same thing at all. The $13,000 isn't really a debt as much as it is a punishment. The real question is…

> So what should happen if I get convicted of a crime and refuse to pay the fine? If you refuse ; the assets should be seized from you and the fine paid that way. If you are unable to , then the fine is, ipso facto , excessive. In either case penal slavery is not an appropriate answer.

Having to pay $13000 after embezzling $11000 is not excessive.
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