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Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

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Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#61

Post by cam_l »

rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

Maybe the reason they would argue this is a debtors prison and not merely a matter arising from a criminal conviction is that she was ordered to pay back money which she had not, and therefore was remanded to the debtors prison. If she had the money, and paid it back, I would argue this would not have happened. The restitution centre is literally there to pay back debts, and not of the 'to society' kind.

But also to the very premise of theft, if I take $13,000 which I had access to from my boss but was not supposed to take, that is criminal (fair). But if my boss takes $13,000 from me, because he is a lousy cheapskate who decides to not pay me fairly for the time which I worked. That is a civil matter? Hell, in this case it is not even a civil matter, they are allowed to only pay her $4 an hour. 92 weeks of cheap forced labour.

Seems to me these words are all just used to reinforce the status quo.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#62

Post by creato »

toasterlovin wrote: post #53
dfsgioninio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has the single highest incarceration rate in the world. In that respect, we have the worst criminal justice system in the world. Other metrics matter, of course, but let's not kid ourselves: the American system is an unmitigated disaster.

I see several comments complaining about the US incarceration rate without mentioning the US crime rate. You can’t credibly assert that the US incarceration rate is too high without knowing how it compares to the crime rate.

More than just the crime rate, the rate at which crimes are successfully prosecuted and the resources exist to enable incarceration. Some countries that have a very high crime rate [1], but have a much lower rate of incarceration than the US [2]. In these cases, the US having a higher prison population is just a consequence of the US being wealthy.

1. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-cou...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#63

Post by axlee »

toasterlovin wrote: post #53
dfsgioninio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has the single highest incarceration rate in the world. In that respect, we have the worst criminal justice system in the world. Other metrics matter, of course, but let's not kid ourselves: the American system is an unmitigated disaster.

I see several comments complaining about the US incarceration rate without mentioning the US crime rate. You can’t credibly assert that the US incarceration rate is too high without knowing how it compares to the crime rate.

A high crime rate is a telltale sign of a dysfunctional society, anyway. Something is rotten.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#64

Post by whiddershins »

rayiner wrote: post #42
alphabettsy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are regularly jailed for civil infractions such as traffic tickets, and failing to pay fines from such infractions. They are also held on bail when they cannot afford to pay, this is before found guilty of any crime.

Traffic tickets in many states are criminal violations. Here in Maryland, for example, there are no civil infractions except for automated red light cameras. Even a normal speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

A speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

This beggars belief. Can you provide sources or citations. Quick googling finds no references to this absolutely implausible scenario.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#65

Post by runninganyways »

Nextgrid wrote: post #7

The more I read about "justice" in the US the more I realise how fucked up and perverted the concept of justice is in that country. We're always quick to criticise other countries for the failings or bad design of their justice system and lack of respect for human rights, but are we much better? We might be better on paper, but is that actually reflected in reality? I'm not so sure.

In my opinion this is just one symptom of the overall illness our society is suffering from. There's no unity among people. It's very much a materialistic society. Everyone thinks everything should be safe. The government has become the arbitrator for fucking every conflict which further prevents us from seeing the humanity in each other. And that's critical because there seems to be less humanity in us every year.

The Injustice system is just an outgrowth of this madness. People in this country don't think right and so you go to justice system that ain't right. But they don't care as long as they're not the ones in prison or jail. it's literally good that other people are in jail because that makes them better than other people. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if this country reverted to some form of slavery. Our society is sick. So our justice system is sick.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#66

Post by klipt »

a_t48 wrote: post #59
rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt. No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong. > Where the debt comes from…

> Women who murder their abusive husbands, for example, are almost never going to go and murder someone else. By your reasoning, they shouldn’t go to prison to punish them for their murder. That's a reasonable position to take, actually. Depends on the level of abuse, I'd say. https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/europe/uk-sally-challen-intl-...

The thing is, jail also acts as a deterrent to the first murder. If it's common knowledge that everyone gets one "murder your abusive spouse" consequence free, a lot more people might commit murders in cases where a divorce might have worked out better and less deadly.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#67

Post by rayiner »

whiddershins wrote: post #64
rayiner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traffic tickets in many states are criminal violations. Here in Maryland, for example, there are no civil infractions except for automated red light cameras. Even a normal speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

A speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction. This beggars belief. Can you provide sources or citations. Quick googling finds no references to this absolutely implausible scenario.

https://www.atlantaduilawyer.com/blog/is-a-speeding-ticket-a...

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#68

Post by ShroudedNight »

> The Mississippi Department of Corrections, or MDOC, repeatedly declined our requests to visit the restitution centers and to discuss them with state officials. But in a statement issued in late December in response to our findings, the department noted that it follows state law when operating the restitution program.

If this program were one of integrity and justice, it should not have a problem exposing its complete workings to its citizens. Notwithstanding the possibility of unreported history here, this stinks.

>Darrell Bridges says he earned almost $2,000 working at Checkers during his stint in the Pascagoula Restitution Center in 2013. But the money was never applied to the $3,403 debt he owed from an attempted robbery when he was 17, records show.

>As a worker makes money, the corrections department takes the first cut in room and board, then usually holds the remaining earnings until there’s enough to pay the entire debt. When someone leaves the program, the corrections department sends their earnings to the court to cover its costs. It distributes the rest to victims, then to pay criminal fines.

Indefinite debt bondage is unjust in any form, but the state and its agents reserving for itself the lion share of this feast of blood and life is especially reprehensible.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#69

Post by jdsully »

rayiner wrote: post #41
jdsully wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I nodded in agreement. Then I wondered if someone had the $11,000 would they still be in jail?

Convictions for theft and embezzlement usually have two separate punishments: imprisonment and restitution (give back what you stole). As to the restitution part only, being able to pay back the money can avoid imprisonment related to the restitution judgment. But there is nothing unfair about that.

Paying restitution is one thing, being forced to stay in jail while paying it back is quite another. Normally these cases are handled with garnished wages.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#70

Post by crusty »

klipt wrote: post #66
a_t48 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women who murder their abusive husbands, for example, are almost never going to go and murder someone else. By your reasoning, they shouldn’t go to prison to punish them for their murder. That's a reasonable position to take, actually. Depends on the level of abuse, I'd say. https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/europe/uk-sally-challen-intl-...

The thing is, jail also acts as a deterrent to the first murder. If it's common knowledge that everyone gets one "murder your abusive spouse" consequence free, a lot more people might commit murders in cases where a divorce might have worked out better and less deadly.

I challenge you on "jail also acts as a deterrent to the first murder" as a cliched truism and again on "...a lot more people might commit murders..." - I mean really, you added the might because even you know you're just throwing BS against the proverbial wall.
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