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Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

theguardian.com

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Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#101

Post by throwawaylolx »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #73
im3w1l wrote: post #7

> The results show strong correlations, but research that would prove a causal link is difficult because ethical experiments cannot deliberately expose people to harm. This is kind of my hobby horse: you don't need to subject people to harm to test causuality. You can do the opposite: Remove harm and see what happens. Maybe give people free HVAC upgrades to filter more particles.

>Maybe give people free HVAC upgrades to filter more particles. Or just reduce pollution in the first place! AFAIK, manufacturing and running HVAC would add more pollution and cost more than switching (for instance) from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles. Or even better, cycling within cities. etc.

GP was probably thinking about practical solutions, not idealized solution.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#102

Post by close04 »

corin_ wrote: post #87
close04 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is to adjust only the parameter you were targeting. Say you also change temperature and humidity and they are the real culprits, or big contributors. This is why the unethical method would be more precise because conceivably it's easier to introduce specific pollutants in the experiment. Of course this would be irresponsible so I'm hoping that by combining data from multiple studies and getting a better gri…

Would it be unethical to provide a free filter that takes out all particles, then re-adds one specific pollutant back into the air at the exact same level? On the one hand, the machine is specifically administering the pollutant to humans; on the other, without the device they'd be getting the exact same and worse.. I'd say yes if offered that for my house and it could help research.

It would definitely be very impractical and expensive to achieve. Also the fact that you add back those particles still feels at least a bit unethical. Definitely not a simple issue.

But using a filter that selectively removes just that pollutant and changes nothing[0] else would probably be the cleanest way to do it.

[0] another thing that's very hard to achieve.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#104

Post by aalleavitch »

throwawaylolx wrote: post #95
aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

How would you know this without any reliable data regarding pre-industrialization depression levels? Maybe depressed people congregate around urban areas, seeking fulfilment or acceptance, or any other explanation.

What I do have is reliable data regarding the working conditions of average people in industrializing economies, and the correlation between consumer debt, depression, and suicide:

https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-co...

> In the US alone, individuals who struggle to pay off their debts and loans are more than twice as likely to experience mental health problems, including depression and anxiety. Today’s unprecedented levels of consumer debt prompt further exploration of its effect on mental and physical well-being.

> While suicide is not a common response to unmanageable debt, it remains a leading cause of death in the US. The potential of suicide increases among financially distressed individuals as debt levels become harder to manage. Suicide rates have increased by more than 30 percent since 1999 according to a recent report by the Center for Disease Control. Like Jerome, more than half of people who die by suicide do not have a history of depression or mental illness. Almost 30 percent of suicides occur in response to a crisis within the past two weeks and 16 percent occur in response to a financial problem.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#105

Post by corin_ »

close04 wrote: post #102
corin_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be unethical to provide a free filter that takes out all particles, then re-adds one specific pollutant back into the air at the exact same level? On the one hand, the machine is specifically administering the pollutant to humans; on the other, without the device they'd be getting the exact same and worse.. I'd say yes if offered that for my house and it could help research.

It would definitely be very impractical and expensive to achieve. Also the fact that you add back those particles still feels at least a bit unethical. Definitely not a simple issue. But using a filter that selectively removes just that pollutant and changes nothing[0] else would probably be the cleanest way to do it. [0] another thing that's very hard to achieve.

If the result to the user (getting a machine that leaves them with clean air except 1 type of polutant at exactly the level that polutant would be without the machine), is it really different ethically based on whether the machine leaves that polutant or removes then replaces it?

Seems kind of like saying (although this example is certainly less ethical to those of us who oppose murder and death penalties) that there's a difference ethically between killing someone by putting poison into their body vs. killing them by preventing food/water to go into their body.

But as to achieving it, sure I wasn't proposing it as necessarily a good or feasible option - other the little bit of research I did when choosing which air purifier for my bedroom I don't know much about the technology.

I was more just thinking about the ethical question if it were possible, since I can appreciate the argument against it but like I said, I personally would be completely happy for a research team to offer me the hypothetical machine.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#106

Post by wongarsu »

frank_nitti wrote: post #31
hyperpallium wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't removing the "actual responsible substances" from the air removing air pollutants?

Semantically, yes. But I assume they are referring to the what people would consider the usual suspects for "big city" pollution, i.e. exhaust, aerosols.

"HEPA filters reduce depression and suicide rate" might not be quite the causality we are looking for, but it would be a big stepping stone in addition to being a very useful result on its own.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#107

Post by onion2k »

im3w1l wrote: post #7

> The results show strong correlations, but research that would prove a causal link is difficult because ethical experiments cannot deliberately expose people to harm. This is kind of my hobby horse: you don't need to subject people to harm to test causuality. You can do the opposite: Remove harm and see what happens. Maybe give people free HVAC upgrades to filter more particles.

That would also remove other things from the air, which ruins the experiment. The only way to measure if a particular type of pollution is responsible is to only filter that one out, which is basically impossible, or to increase the amount of that one, which is unethical because it's potentially harmful.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#108

Post by throwawaylolx »

aalleavitch wrote: post #104
throwawaylolx wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know this without any reliable data regarding pre-industrialization depression levels? Maybe depressed people congregate around urban areas, seeking fulfilment or acceptance, or any other explanation.

What I do have is reliable data regarding the working conditions of average people in industrializing economies, and the correlation between consumer debt, depression, and suicide: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-co... > In the US alone, individuals who struggle to pay off their debts and loans are more than twice as likely to experience mental health problems, including depression and anxie…

And what were the working conditions of the average people in pre-industrial economies?

>The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom. [1]

The common historical interpretion today is that the industrial revolution _improved_ the standards of living for the average person, so it's contradictory to your thesis.

[1] Forsythe, David P. Encyclopedia of human rights. Vol. 1. Oxford University Press, 2009. (399)

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#110

Post by ailideex »

sooheon wrote: post #90
tomrod wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bayesian priors, I reckon.

This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?

There is opposing evidence?
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