Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties…
Unfortunately I have to say it's not 100% true. The real independence movement was started from the right, look for "Artur Mas". The main slogan back then was "Spain steal from us". It's true though that Communists parties always wanted the independence, but the right parties have driven this process from the very beginning. Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same pr…
Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
101–110 of 154 posts
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#102Well I didn't know that we were going to link straight up propaganda here in HN. I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT. For those who didn't know this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency It has very close ties with Carles Puigdemont, which has been his director once.
1248 points Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hacking Tool https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/world/europe/uk-national-health-service-cyberattack.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=1&referer=https://www.rt.com/news/388153-thousands-ransomeware-attacks-worldwide/
848 points Meteorite crash in Russia http://rt.com/news/meteorite-crash-urals-chelyabinsk-283/
534 points Stanislav Petrov, a Soviet officer who averted nuclear war, has died https://www.rt.com/news/403625-nuclear-soviet-officer-died/
515 points Bolivia to file UN complaint over airspace blockade http://rt.com/news/bolivia-un-complaint-plane-601/
505 points Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-papers-russia-902/
395 points Snowden asylum still under review, stays in airport for now http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-airport-asylum-521/
371 points 'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/
360 points Anonymous takes down Department of Justice and Universal Music http://rt.com/usa/news/anonymous-doj-universal-sopa-235/
320 points WikiLeaks wins case against Visa https://rt.com/news/wikileaks-visa-court-case-040/
306 points Stallman: Facebook is Mass Surveillance https://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/
289 points Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker http://rt.com/usa/news/swartz-prosecutor-suicide-hacker-050/
288 points Microsoft helped the NSA bypass encryption, new Snowden leak reveals http://rt.com/usa/microsoft-nsa-snowden-leak-971/
272 points Obama wins back the right to indefinitely detain under NDAA http://rt.com/usa/obama-ndaa-appeal-suit-229/
270 points Man-made super flu could kill half of humanity http://rt.com/news/bird-flu-killer-strain-119/
247 points Small Utah ISP firm stands up to surveillance state http://rt.com/usa/utah-isp-surveillance-state-corporations-925/
245 points ‘99.99 percent air’: Boeing releases video of revolutionary lightweight metal https://www.rt.com/news/318280-super-light-air-metal/
241 points ‘America has no functioning democracy at this moment’ – Jimmy Carter on NSA http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/
229 points Twitter’s multi-million dollar US election pitch to RT https://www.rt.com/news/407919-twitter-multi-million-offer-rt/
178 points FBI admits to flying drones over US without warrants http://rt.com/usa/fbi-drones-over-usa-653/
175 points Russia may deem civil servants’ use of Gmail, Facebook ‘high treason’ http://rt.com/politics/gmail-facebook-treason-high-521/
153 points Microsoft wins federal appeal over warrants for data held outside US https://www.rt.com/usa/351052-microsoft-emails-ireland-server/
152 points Hundreds march in Singapore against website licensing regime http://rt.com/news/singapore-website-protest-bloggers-419/
151 points Steve Wozniak: Internet should not have gatekeepers or regulators http://rt.com/usa/news/wozniak-interview-dotcom-freedom-396/
132 points Russia wont extradite Snowden to US Kremlin http://rt.com/news/snowden-russia-extradite-us-634/
129 points Death of Yuri Gagarin demystified 40 years on http://rt.com/news/gagarin-death-truth-revealed-674/
128 points Google will ‘de-rank’ RT articles to make them harder to find – Eric Schmidt https://www.rt.com/news/410444-google-alphabet-derank-rt/
123 points Ecuador has received asylum request from NSA leaker Snowden http://rt.com/news/ecuador-asylum-request-snowden-135/
106 points Sen. Wyden imagines the White House is willing to reconsider surveillance http://rt.com/usa/nsa-surveillance-wyden-snowden-021/
103 points Appeals court rules journalists cant keep their sources secret http://rt.com/usa/nyt-risen-leak-espionage-336/
90 points Sorry is not enough: Bolivia demands EU find culprits behind aerial hijack http://rt.com/news/bolivia-eu-apologies-not-enough-202/
89 points RMS on evil developers, spying social networks, the legitimacy of Anonymous http://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/
85 points Russia promises legal action over NSA surveillance scandal http://rt.com/politics/internet-surveillance-western-prevent-928/
80 points Richard Stallman: Snowden leak a chance for privacy [video] http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/snowden-leak-privacy-surveillance-093/
80 points FBI releases documents that confirm they proactively spy on anarchists https://rt.com/usa/news/fbi-plante-anarchists-jury-983/
77 points US 'disappointed' with Hong Kong, asks Latin American countries to stop Snowden http://rt.com/news/snowden-us-disappointed-hong-kong-139/
72 points Moscow-Cuba flight skirts US airspace, prompts speculation Snowden is aboard http://rt.com/news/snowden-plane-route-cuba-965/
72 points Anti-corruption blogger Navalny sentenced to 5 years behind bars http://rt.com/news/navalny-verdict-court-guilty-234/
70 points Scientists successfully test ‘biological supercomputer’ performing complex tasks https://www.rt.com/news/333912-biocomputers-perform-complex-calculations/
68 points Nobody ‘stealing’ your jobs, you spend too much on wars, Jack Ma tells US https://www.rt.com/business/374289-alibaba-us-jobs-military/
66 points California man faces 13 years in jail for scribbling anti-bank messages in chalk http://rt.com/usa/california-man-13-prison-banks-237/Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties…
>and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs" Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90…
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90…
That's a lie. The current catalonian separatist government got about 50% of the votes from the catalonian people. 90% of secession it's just not true.
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#106Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…
Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire.
For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans.
After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism.
Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba.
The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century.
In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail.
In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero).
That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge.
This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them.
This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony.
After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain.
When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time).
In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions.
At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them.
Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people.
Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades.
Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time.
That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt.
If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time.
Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old.
They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages.
The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#107What will they expect of a state defending itself and trying to keep its integrity? The Spanish constitution says that the country includes Catalonia and that the State must defend the country integrity. Modify the constitution by democracy if you don't like it, but stop promoting undemocratic and unconstitutional ideas.
Well, how about acting like a civilized European state going about it, including respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights? The recent developments look very bad, and the Spanish state seems to be engaging in blatant abuse of their anti-terrorism laws.
The Spanish government allowed right to assembly and free of speech, otherwise there wouldn't be any demonstration...
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#108I assume this is a translation error.
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#109Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…
Catalonia and Basque country are the most developed places in Spain, from an industrial point of view. Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire. For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans. After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, n…
Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.
> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's…
Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.