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Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

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Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#101

Post by Mz »

yters wrote: post #89
Mz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you immunize yourself or your children for things like MMR now? My sons are both legal adults, so it is no longer my decision to make for them. I don't have plans/expectations to have more kids. I would be very reluctant to get anymore vaccinations. I have done better without them. So far, I haven't really had to make any decisions regarding some "position" along those lines. I don't recall the last time I had…

Do you have any lifestyle/diet resources you can point me to?

I have a website where I talk a little about things I've done. There are some links on it to other resources. The link to it is in my profile (the one with "health" in the name). If you have some specific issue you are trying to address, you can write me privately and I can try to make some suggestions/give some pointers.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#102

Post by Mz »

hartror wrote: post #80
Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Most scientific views boil down to "belief" -- by that I mean that most people are essentially taking the word of some expert or other without themselves genuinely understanding it and, also, the lovely drawings of the solar system, tectonic plates, etc that you find in scientific materials are basically made up fantasies. If you used any kind of meaningful scale for the solar sy…

Sorry but "Most scientific views boil down to "belief"" is patently untrue. All scientific theories are not beliefs but rational explanations that fit the facts. If a new fact appears that contravenes the theory, the theory is thrown out. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories for example, some of which weren't thrown out till early last century). As a physics undergrad I was never asked to take an expert…

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write at length this morning and by the time I get off work this discussion will basically be dead. So, in brief: Physics is very different from medicine. If you drop an apple to test gravity (per second per second measures, etc), the apple does not make a zillion and one choices that impact how it falls. But when you try to figure out what does and does not impact human health, people do make a zillion and one choices which impact the study outcome. There is also quite a lot of evidence that most studies concerning human health have serious flaws. Last, I would say that "peer review" is a form of social proof. Given how poorly that point is going over in this discussion, I will skip attempting to elaborate.

Peace.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#103

Post by bm98 »

yardie wrote: post #95
hartror wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but once a child has left the normal cycle of immunization either the parents or the government need to make an effort to get them up to date. IMO this by and large won't happen without either policies in place or a large public interest campaign directed at it.

Are children still accepted into schools without their vaccinations? I know when I was a kid I had to bring a card with all my shots or they wouldn't enroll me. So has this requirement been dropped? And to get a VISA for some countries you need to bring that card.

In most US states, a parent can apply for a religious exemption that will allow them to enroll their child in school without one or more of the required immunizations. Some states even offer "philosophical" exemptions.

The National Conference of State Legislatures maintains a list of exemption statutes by state:

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14376

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#104

Post by Mz »

fhars wrote: post #87
Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Most scientific views boil down to "belief" -- by that I mean that most people are essentially taking the word of some expert or other without themselves genuinely understanding it and, also, the lovely drawings of the solar system, tectonic plates, etc that you find in scientific materials are basically made up fantasies. If you used any kind of meaningful scale for the solar sy…

At 33 million miles to the millimeter, the about 4000 million miles from the sun to Pluto would be around 120mm. Just beause you had an error in your calculation doesn't imply that either your teacher nor science as a whole are wrong.

It's possible I am misremembering the exact numbers from many years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that any accurate model of the scale of the solar system would not have fit in the classroom (and certainly does not fit on the pages of a book). There are scale models of the solar system in the world. They get laid out across several city blocks and things like that. One of them puts something (a star maybe? -- not something within the solar system, I don't think) in Australia when the model of the solar system itself is in some place like Great Britain.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#105

Post by Mz »

rimantas wrote: post #96
Mz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Galileo was put under house arrest for the rest of his life for introducing a new concept. It took many years for Einstein's theory to get sufficient proof as to be accepted. Einstein himself said something like "You cannot solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it". I think it is reasonable to assume that our current medical assumptions are part of the problem when it comes to autism, whic…

Galileo did not introduce the new concept. And he was put under house arrest by scientists. Your point about Einstein just confirms that science is not about belief, but about proof. Your reference to science in quotes is really off-putting. Everyone who does that gets gradually sicker and sicker until they die, usually at a young age. Sounds like you know everyone and their condition. Can it be? Your position is bas…

I put a great deal of effort into trying to understand why people do not believe me. I am well aware that many don't because they are basically incredulous -- what I am saying flies in the face of everything they know to be true. It is not only hard to believe, it is very upsetting to believe because it calls into question the trustworthiness of their doctor, which is very threatening when you have a deadly medical condition.

Currently, the average life expectancy in the US for people with CF is about 37. I have talked to quite a few people online -- there are only about 30,000 diagnosed cases of CF in the US and some lists have hundreds of members, some of whom have more than one family member with CF. I don't know "everyone" but it is a small enough community to know quite a good cross section of such people via the internet. The folks who are doing better than expected generally make a lot of dietary and lifestyle changes and do a lot of research. The details of what they do and what they think may vary from what I do and what I think, but dietary changes are a very consistent aspect of what I have seen work for this population.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#106

Post by bm98 »

neworbit wrote: post #100
RP_Joe wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the inserts. There on the net. It contains Themerosal.

You are not paying attention. The single-dose versions that were targeted at administration to children explicitly do not. The nasal inhalation version that was targeted for pregnant women explicitly does not. The multi-dose vials are the ones that contain Thimerosal, and those are explicitly NOT for pregnant women nor young children. http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/expert.q.a/11/02/h1n1.thimero...

You are incorrect: In the US, two 2009 H1N1 vaccines distributed in multi-dose vials were approved for children >= 6 months. See:

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/dosage.htm#table1

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#107

Post by electromagnetic »

yardie wrote: post #95
hartror wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but once a child has left the normal cycle of immunization either the parents or the government need to make an effort to get them up to date. IMO this by and large won't happen without either policies in place or a large public interest campaign directed at it.

Are children still accepted into schools without their vaccinations? I know when I was a kid I had to bring a card with all my shots or they wouldn't enroll me. So has this requirement been dropped? And to get a VISA for some countries you need to bring that card.

IIRC here in Canada you have to have all your vaccinations or by-and-large you will not be accepted into any school. However, I don't remember this being needed in the UK, but then again I remember getting shots during class time so I probably never paid enough attention because everyone got the vaccinations.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#108

Post by electromagnetic »

ceejayoz wrote: post #60
brudgers wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd." While I don't agree with the factual basis on which they are making their decision, it is entirely rational given their belief. MMR are [edit] usually temporary and can typically be effectively treated by the medical systems of industrialized nations, whereas autism is permanent and generally untreatable. It is analogous to purchasing a large heavy vehicle (e.g. SUV) bas…

> MMR are [edit] usually temporary and can typically be effectively treated by the medical systems of industrialized nations, whereas autism is permanent and generally untreatable. Sure, but forgoing the MMR vaccine to prevent autism makes as much sense as forgoing baths to prevent brain tumours.

Especially considering that measles has no effective treatment whatsoever. The treatment for measles is piss poor symptomatic treatment (IE you've got a fever? Here's some ibuprofen. You acquired bacterial pneumonia as a complication? Take some antibiotics.)

I really don't see symptomatic treatment as "effectively treated", I see it as a barely more effective treatment than placing leaches on a plague victim as they have to face the disease alone. Given that acute measles has a 15% mortality rate, I'd say it isn't effective treatment at all given that the measles mortality as a whole is 3 in 1000.

I find the blissful ignorance these people live in to be baffling. Do they not comprehend the statistics that there were hundreds of thousands of infections per year before vaccinations began and that this was attributed to deaths in the ten-thousands and countless more blindnesses.

I guess I'm rare in that I would rather see my kid alive and not suffering an agonizing death in childhood above my inconvenience of taking care of an autistic child and feeling like I have to blame someone else above simply accepting genetics.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#109

Post by hartror »

Mz wrote: post #102
hartror wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but "Most scientific views boil down to "belief"" is patently untrue. All scientific theories are not beliefs but rational explanations that fit the facts. If a new fact appears that contravenes the theory, the theory is thrown out. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories for example, some of which weren't thrown out till early last century). As a physics undergrad I was never asked to take an expert…

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write at length this morning and by the time I get off work this discussion will basically be dead. So, in brief: Physics is very different from medicine. If you drop an apple to test gravity (per second per second measures, etc), the apple does not make a zillion and one choices that impact how it falls. But when you try to figure out what does and does not impact human health…

Physics and medicine both rely on rationalism and the scientific method.

The difference between what you are talking about and what I am talking about it the difference between objective and subjective proof. Your social proof easily falls into the post hoc fallacy[1]. While I will happily admit medical science doesn't get it right all the time at least the onus is there to prove the safety and efficacy of the drug.

A great example of this is those power balance bracelets[2], where anecdotal evidence (your "social proof") is provided in the form of celebrity endorsement. So a piece of rubber and a hologram like those you see on credit cards is sold for $30. They've been force to admit there is no evidence they work yet people will swear blue murder they do. Why? Because we are subjective beings, right now to our physical makeup (try plunging a hand into luke warm water then hot water then back again sometime).

We are poor judges of things, especially when it comes to ourselves.

[1] http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html [2] http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/23/3100270.htm

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#110

Post by hartror »

originalgeek wrote: post #97
hartror wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also when Thimerosal was removed from most of the vaccines in 2001 it had no affect on Autism rates. This was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for that hypothesis, yet the meme continues.

From 2007: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.881 : (5) Considerable progress has been made in reducing mercury exposures from childhood vaccines, yet 8 years after the July 1999 statement, thimerosal remains in several nonroutinely administered childhood vaccines and many pediatric and adult influenza vaccines. (6) There is no law or regulation to prohibit the reintroduction of thimerosal into any produc…

So pretty much what you are saying is backing up what I have said. If thimerosal and other mercury based were responsible for autism then we should see a drop in diagnosis rates relative to the decrease in the use of thimerosal.

As there has been none there is no like, causal or otherwise.

But please keep going, this is almost as fun as playing Battlefield . . .

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