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Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

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Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#101

Post by rorykoehler »

tptacek wrote: post #92
rorykoehler wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

They need to scale with the revenue derived from the offense , if the goal is to deter them from that behavior in the future.

FWIW my personal opinion is the the goal should be to deter from unethical and/or (borderline) illegal activity in the future, not only that specific behaviour. Anything else turns into a game of whack-a-mole which is long term damaging to the economy and competitive environment.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#102

Post by ionised »

tptacek wrote: post #98
Avshalom wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else do fine a company for a decade of knowingly bad behavior except looking at what they afford and setting it accordingly. This wasn't a whoopsie, it was a deliberate choice made consistently for years with the knowledge and budgeting that they might get fined for it. Also this behavior is inextricable from their overall revenue. Also also are we back to should as opposed to the FTC's legal authority? I think i…

You can't just make things up because you don't like the company. If you can do that, so can people whose views you'd find odious.

What is he making up? This seems like Facebook's MO as far as I can tell.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#103

Post by ionised »

tptacek wrote: post #92
rorykoehler wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

They need to scale with the revenue derived from the offense , if the goal is to deter them from that behavior in the future.

How would that deter them though?

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#104

Post by ionised »

tptacek wrote: post #71
jachee wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single company that collects, stores and uses any personally identifiable information should be deterred from abusing their privilege of doing so.

Yes, and how does a $5B fine not accomplish that? It's not like any smaller company can look at this and say "well, the total valuation of all firms pursuing these activities is larger than the fine, so it's rational to continue doing that". By all means, fine every company that does this $5B, though.

It may deter smaller firms. It's won't deter Facebook.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#105

Post by ionised »

tptacek wrote: post #58
yeahitslikethat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human beings as persons face existential punishment every day. Corporations a persons -- never. That's why they get away with this stuff no one thinks is good.

Something, something, two wrongs, something.

The implication you're making is that a larger fine or existential threat to the company is somehow 'wrong'.

I would disagree, as would many others.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#106

Post by kilotaras »

adventured wrote: post #53
Avshalom wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior second 5 billion won't even lead to an unprofitable quarter at 2018's numbers so there's a loooot of room between 5B and an existential fine, we aren't any where near the slippery part of the slope.

> I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine. Almost no large companies on the planet have the extreme profit margins of Facebook. Alternatively to avoid that kind of damage you have to adjust the percentage scale to each individual company's profit margins (25% revenue fine for Face…

We use percent of person's total life revenue (jail time) for non-violent crimes (theft, fraud, etc.) all the time. It's not clear why corporations should get a pass.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#107

Post by ramblerman »

tptacek wrote: post #92
rorykoehler wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

They need to scale with the revenue derived from the offense , if the goal is to deter them from that behavior in the future.

This just allows corporations to compartmentalize their risks. They can put all their illegal activities in a side division, and if they don't pan out no worries since we only get fined on the revenue of the failed project.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#108

Post by ionised »

jseliger wrote: post #77
muckrakerz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely wrong. Fines scale with revenue because they are supposed to deter behavior. If I get fined $1000 the change in my behavior is different from that of a minimum wage earner and a multibillion dollar company. FB has egregiously harmed consumers and has engaged in behavior that is criminal. In no way should they be left off the hook.

FB has egregiously harmed consumers If that were true, you'd see consumers quitting en masse—yet that's not what we see, no? https://jakeseliger.com/2018/11/14/is-there-an-actual-facebo...

If heroin were really harmful, you'd see users quitting en masse too, surely?

And what about Palm Oil? If those plantations were really a major contributing factor in climate change people would stop using it surely?

Come on. The popularity of something is no measure of the harm it causes.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#109

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee »

tptacek wrote: post #37

This is kind of alarming to me. A fine should scale with the the greater of the harm done and the amount needed to deter the behavior. But that's not what's happening here; instead, people are proposing that the fine scale with Facebook's total revenue. Even Facebook's most ardent critics probably don't believe they derive a majority (or really even a significant amount) of revenue from the lax API controls companies…

How else do you give a sufficient deterrent if the fine doesn’t hurt and make you reconsider future actions?

A couple hundred dollar fine is not a deterrent to me speeding in my car, but multiple thousands of dollars would be.

You can absolutely make the case that 5bil is not much to Facebook, especially if it solidifies their safety going forward without any real behavioral changes / enforcement.

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