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Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

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Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#91

Post by rorykoehler »

tptacek wrote: post #70
Avshalom wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior second 5 billion won't even lead to an unprofitable quarter at 2018's numbers so there's a loooot of room between 5B and an existential fine, we aren't any where near the slippery part of the slope.

No, fines don't have to scale with total revenue. If most of Facebook's revenue has nothing to do with the incident the FTC is fining it for, all the fine needs to do is make that specific business activity irrationally risky to do in the future.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#92

Post by tptacek »

rorykoehler wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, fines don't have to scale with total revenue. If most of Facebook's revenue has nothing to do with the incident the FTC is fining it for, all the fine needs to do is make that specific business activity irrationally risky to do in the future.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

They need to scale with the revenue derived from the offense, if the goal is to deter them from that behavior in the future.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#93

Post by tptacek »

Avshalom wrote: post #89
tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That they did it AGAIN is the basis for there being a relatively significant fine in the first place. It does not follow that the purpose of that fine should be to cripple Facebook, not because crippling Facebook is bad, but because there is no reasonable basis in law to do so. Again, the significance of the fine is relative to the offense, not the entity. We also don’t fine Mark Zuckerberg 10MM for being late (AGAIN…

That they could do it again is clear evidence that they never complied. Separately a 4x, a 20 billion dollar, fine still wouldn't cripple them. Also I'm actually strongly for fining Zuckerberg personally 10mm for his personal traffic violations because the point of fines is punishment and deterrence and thus should be scaled to the individual.

Nobody is debating whether they complied. They didn't. They got a fine. The fine is good. What we're debating is how big the fine should be, and my argument is, the notion that the fine should scale with Facebook's overall revenue, unmoored from the specific offense, is both irrational and dangerous.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#94

Post by yeahitslikethat »

detaro wrote: post #61
yeahitslikethat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do that until all the 737max's are fixed and I bet they are fixed in a hurry. But I'm sure your sarcasm means you think the economic impact will be worse than the lives lost in the pursuit of financial preservation. Money is worth more than lives right?

> Do that until all the 737max's are fixed and I bet they are fixed in a hurry. Because fixed in a hurry is what you want in that situation?

Boeing doesn't decide if they are fixed. I have no sympathy for a corporation who puts money over lives.

They murdered people for money. The company should be ended. Death sentence.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#95

Post by alexeldeib »

tptacek wrote: post #92
rorykoehler wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely do have to scale with revenue. Maybe a small fine, enough to cover API revenues, will deter them from that the very specific behaviour around API data they got fined for however it won't make them think twice about taking a chance on the next unrelated opportunity to be nefarious. A large fine will.

They need to scale with the revenue derived from the offense , if the goal is to deter them from that behavior in the future.

FWIW, I see you saying this, but there are running examples of fines scaling to income, e.g. personal income and speeding tickets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland...

I'm also not sure that "scaling with the offense" makes sense -- If company A and B can do the same thing, receive equal fines, but company B can continue to exist as if nothing happened, did the fine mean anything? Would your argument in this case be that the fine should be high enough to be damaging enough to both companies, approximately equal to the social value of discouraging that behavior?

Curious especially because you said if the laws changed, you'd be ambivalent. I think there's a structural problem here, I'm not sure any amount of fining particularly will solve the real problem.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#96

Post by Avshalom »

tptacek wrote: post #93
Avshalom wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That they could do it again is clear evidence that they never complied. Separately a 4x, a 20 billion dollar, fine still wouldn't cripple them. Also I'm actually strongly for fining Zuckerberg personally 10mm for his personal traffic violations because the point of fines is punishment and deterrence and thus should be scaled to the individual.

Nobody is debating whether they complied. They didn't. They got a fine. The fine is good. What we're debating is how big the fine should be, and my argument is, the notion that the fine should scale with Facebook's overall revenue, unmoored from the specific offense, is both irrational and dangerous.

How else do fine a company for a decade of knowingly bad behavior except looking at what they afford and setting it accordingly. This wasn't a whoopsie, it was a deliberate choice made consistently for years with the knowledge and budgeting that they might get fined for it.

Also this behavior is inextricable from their overall revenue.

Also also are we back to should as opposed to the FTC's legal authority? I think it should be enough to change the entire culture of Facebook because selling user data is their business model and so anything short of changing the entire culture of Facebook will just result in selling more and more user data as soon as no one is looking. I think it should be enough to prevent Facebook from not just repeating current behavior but to prevent them from coming up with functionally identical but legally distinct behavior. I think it should be enough that Facebook management starts playing whack-a-mole with unethical behavior before the government has to play it after a decade of damage.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#97

Post by jmpman »

Why not require all their profit for the next 10 years be put into an escrow account, such that any violations in those 10 years would result in a forfeiture of those funds? Seems to be a reasonable deterrent and it drives the action in the public’s best interest.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#98

Post by tptacek »

Avshalom wrote: post #96
tptacek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is debating whether they complied. They didn't. They got a fine. The fine is good. What we're debating is how big the fine should be, and my argument is, the notion that the fine should scale with Facebook's overall revenue, unmoored from the specific offense, is both irrational and dangerous.

How else do fine a company for a decade of knowingly bad behavior except looking at what they afford and setting it accordingly. This wasn't a whoopsie, it was a deliberate choice made consistently for years with the knowledge and budgeting that they might get fined for it. Also this behavior is inextricable from their overall revenue. Also also are we back to should as opposed to the FTC's legal authority? I think i…

You can't just make things up because you don't like the company. If you can do that, so can people whose views you'd find odious.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#99

Post by tehlike »

jmpman wrote: post #97

Why not require all their profit for the next 10 years be put into an escrow account, such that any violations in those 10 years would result in a forfeiture of those funds? Seems to be a reasonable deterrent and it drives the action in the public’s best interest.

You will see them distributing dividends, or spending money on new initiatives. It is relatively easier for a corporation to show no profit.

And i dislike the idea personally, punishing a company to inexistence is very unamerican.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#100

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #36
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #33

Meanwhile Boeing actively subverted government regulation leading to mass casualties. What should their punishment be?

1. Execute the company (dissolve the charter) 2. throw the board collectively in jail for a time for inaction of illegal actions leading to death 3. charge all who conspired to subvert laws as a co-conspirators to premeditated murder 4. Liquidate the company and pay back shareholders not in C levels, the Board, family thereof, or people charged with aforementioned crimes Strong enough?

Why would you pay back shareholders?
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