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Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#101

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Causality1 wrote: post #71
_cs2017_ wrote: post #54

Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect. --- Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%,…

Like much of Japanese society, appearances and propriety are very important. Sometimes that means releasing criminals who might not be found guilty. Sometimes it means homicides get declared suicides.

Oh yeah. Used to be they had 'hanging parks' where folks who owed money and couldn't pay would go to 'hang themselves'. Except they had help (from Yakuza etc). So add up 'homicide' and 'self-harm' mortality statistics and you might get a truer story.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#102

Post by wemdyjreichert »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63
mises wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply…

Iran is in the Middle East and had a democratic revolution. (Perhaps somewhat betrayed by their strange bedfellow, but still.)

You would call Iran democratic? You would claim it protects the liberty of its citizens? Allows for religious freedom? Iran's elections are widely considered shams: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/05/12/irans-farce...

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#103

Post by stcredzero »

mises wrote: post #98
stcredzero wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only value that is universal is power. Most of history is dominated by such "might makes right" thinking, and much of human history is dark. It's universal inherent human rights which are the outlier, and which have contributed to the outlier of prosperity and individual human well being we have in the US today. I'm not sure what this is meant to argue. It is merely a listing of the countries in a certain area wi…

> Most of history is dominated by such "might makes right" thinking, and much of human history is dark. It's universal inherent human rights which are the outlier, and which have contributed to the outlier of prosperity and individual human well being we have in the US today. I did not advocate for this, I simply said it was a reality. It is sad but true. I would ask: why is your set of "universal human rights" true?…

The problem is that not every one's culture has the same degree of liberty.

Indeed. This changes over time. It's a process.

My point is simply that democracy may never exist everywhere.

No one disputed that, or held forth any opinion contradicting that.

Quite frankly, it is not perfect.

Agreed.

Democracy is very difficult at scale.

Indeed, it is very messy.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#104

Post by rayiner »

mises wrote: post #99
rayiner wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, maybe not. Counter example. Bangladesh (where I’m from) was created in 1972 with a constitution embodying various western style principles, including secularism. The country was organized along pretty sensible geographic/linguistic/religious borders, and there has been no western meddling with its elections. Regardless, over the decades the people have voted to make Islam the official religion and generally cu…

I certainly didn't blame the west. I personally think it has done more good than harm in the long term. My only point was that not all cultures take to democracy in the same way.

I was responding to @lostlogin’s response to you.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#105

Post by pas »

ansible wrote: post #97
Causality1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like much of Japanese society, appearances and propriety are very important. Sometimes that means releasing criminals who might not be found guilty. Sometimes it means homicides get declared suicides.

Years and years ago I traveled to Japan. It seemed like a very safe place. I had heard about crime in Japan, and the year before had (allegedly) less than 100 murders for the entire country, which puts the murder rate far, far below the rest of the world. And these days when I read about how criminal justice works there... well, I'm glad I'm not as naive as I used to be.

It's a case of both. Japan is incredibly safe, no questions about that. At the same time they have a very severe problem with managing expectations and facing the sometimes inevitable less than perfect results of reality.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#106

Post by djrogers »

mc32 wrote: post #48
anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. Ghosn allegedly arranged this overt/covert payment system because allegedly he was unhappy that compared to euro and American auto execs, he was being under compensated. This scheme if true is unlawful. Euro and American auto execs get paid above board and since there is no need for dual streams (because if you can command 200 mill…

> Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure.

From the GP: >> Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure.

These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#107

Post by pas »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28
ConcernedCoder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.

Under that reasoning I don't see how any form of detainment could not be considered torture as well, including pretty much all public education. One must accept that the real world is not made of lines that provide convenient barriers between concepts, in other words, there are degrees of torture, and some will be much more acceptable than others.

The efficacy of learning for sitting in classes is very low. Especially for those who don't want to be there. So, yes, it's a quite pointless form of torture. (Kids who loathe school need therapy, not "just" school.)

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#108

Post by novok »

wemdyjreichert wrote: post #102
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is in the Middle East and had a democratic revolution. (Perhaps somewhat betrayed by their strange bedfellow, but still.)

You would call Iran democratic? You would claim it protects the liberty of its citizens? Allows for religious freedom? Iran's elections are widely considered shams: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/05/12/irans-farce...

Timeline of Iran & Democracy:

1. Overthrew the shah in the ~1940s, created a democracy

2. Because a large majority of the economy was going to the british in the form of of the anglo persian oil company, iran nationialized it's oil industry

3. This pissed off the british, who poked it's friend america to overthrow the government in Iran. The first president said no, but the next one said yes, which eventually led to the CIA's first sponsored coup and installed the shah again.

4. This pissed off a lot of people and eventually led to the 1979 revolution and the oligarchical theocracy we have today in Iran.

Today the average young civilian in Iran doesn't really like the government.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#109

Post by novok »

ansible wrote: post #97
Causality1 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like much of Japanese society, appearances and propriety are very important. Sometimes that means releasing criminals who might not be found guilty. Sometimes it means homicides get declared suicides.

Years and years ago I traveled to Japan. It seemed like a very safe place. I had heard about crime in Japan, and the year before had (allegedly) less than 100 murders for the entire country, which puts the murder rate far, far below the rest of the world. And these days when I read about how criminal justice works there... well, I'm glad I'm not as naive as I used to be.

Somewhere being safe is a combination of police focusing on a basic set of crimes that happen in the public and poverty.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#110

Post by djrogers »

noego wrote: post #53

> During detention, both were subject to extensive questioning by prosecutors without an attorney present. Videotapes of Ghosn’s questioning — a new feature added in the Criminal Procedure Reform law in 2016 in direct response to documented abuses — were made available to his attorneys who were present at the detention center, but lawyers were not permitted in the room where questioning took place. > The system must…

> In fact, given how much more effective their criminal Justice system is compared to America's, I would err on the side of keeping up their good work.

When a society justifies human rights abuses based on results, bad things tend to happen.

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