Live data from Hacker News

People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

peoplespolicyproject.org

101–110 of 246 posts

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be sure to let the ambulance driver know after a car accident they should shop around :\ Maybe an Ayn Rand medicalert bracelet would help. Allergy: Socialism.

That's why the out of pocket maximum exists. (I think?)

if I understand correctly, the out of pocket maximum might only apply to in network providers. I think if you end up getting a non-covered procedure or get service from an out of network provider, you can be on the hook for way more than the out of pocket maximum. if so, it would be hard to ensure that this doesn't happen in an emergency.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#102
post #40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other first world nations pay less. On average they pay less than half what the US pays. The fully socialized systems, like the UK, seem to trend lower in cost, as low as one third the cost of the US. But really, the takeaway should be you need universal healthcare with significant government cost controls on drugs and procedures, after that almost any arrangement of public/private administration works (but the c…

Without the U.S. subsidizing the drug research R&D, who pays for it? You could fill notebooks with worthy, approachable hypotheses for any number of diseases that could show promise if given the funding. But if everyone makes it law to cap prices - fewer scientists, labs, studies are performed. The money has to come from somewhere. I think countries take for granted the progress we've made. No progress is made withou…

Ha!

This is a silly talking point that lots of companies bounce around - you know how insulin costs money because it was so expensive to develop... Except no, it was invented in Canada and the researchers released the formula for free[1] as a "benefit to humanity" thing... then a few US companies acquired rights to produce it and proceeded to establish market control in the US - the fact that insulin isn't being sold at cost is just pure greed.

And this happens a lot, very often drugs are innovated using public funds and then sold to private companies to produce which milk the consumers for profit - this whole "it pays for R&D" is a pharmaceutical PR line, just like when McDonalds buried their hot coffee lawsuit under "well, if people weren't such klutzes". The US isn't the great innovator here to save us all and a huge proportion of your drug prices cycles back into marketing to sell more of the drug.

[1] Technically, they sold it for a dollar to the University of Toronto

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#103
post #77
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually sounds like the high deductible plan is functioning as it should though. Causing consumers to price-shop and avoid price-gouging providers.

Sure, in the case of a scan that isn't urgent. If you were in a car accident and have a piece of metal embedded in your kidney are you in a level, clear-minded state to price shop about which emergency room won't gouge you? Health care is an inelastic good, we need it. So this is a market (much like having a military) that really benefits from the government stepping in and making things sane.

That’s what an advanced directive is for. We just need to extend it beyond CPR/no CPR and heroic measures vs no heroic measures, etc. Kinda how like insurance companies negotiate prices for everything in advance of you showing up.

Let users watch a series of videos and choose what kind of risk and benefit they tolerate/want and how much they’re willing to spend.

It’s morbid, but we do such assessments constantly. Do I come to a complete stop and waste a few seconds and ml of gas, or roll through it and be really careful about it?

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#104
post #45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the U.S. subsidizing the drug research R&D, who pays for it? You could fill notebooks with worthy, approachable hypotheses for any number of diseases that could show promise if given the funding. But if everyone makes it law to cap prices - fewer scientists, labs, studies are performed. The money has to come from somewhere. I think countries take for granted the progress we've made. No progress is made withou…

This paper gives pretty interesting breakdown of how private companies are increasingly bad at paying for it. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/public-p... One quote from the paper: In the last ten years, Pizer has spent US$139 billion on share buybacks and dividends compared to US$82 billion on R&D. Edit: It shouldn't require massive profit margins to make the drug industry work for a basic human n…

Food production is predictable. Finding a safe, effective treatment for Alzheimer’s is not.

If you want thin margins, maybe government research wing can take its findings from idea to market (imagine waiting on a cure and that’s your only hope?)

But you can’t force a private company to operate on low margins by way of capping prices, you’ll kill them. You can’t taje away their ability to control their risks (cash flow). Drug R&D already has a huge failure rate and now the company can only take a 5% profit on the slight chance they’ve found something effective?

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the out of pocket maximum exists. (I think?)

if I understand correctly, the out of pocket maximum might only apply to in network providers. I think if you end up getting a non-covered procedure or get service from an out of network provider, you can be on the hook for way more than the out of pocket maximum. if so, it would be hard to ensure that this doesn't happen in an emergency.

That was fixed long ago by ACA. Emergency services are treated as in-network regardless of whether they were actually in-network.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#106
I don’t understand why the article uses labor turnover or health plan churn. Why would that be relevant to the original bolded premise that people like their better coverage sponsored by employers?

If I leave a job or get laid off, usually I’ll get a similar job that has similar insurance. Now maybe you could argue that there’s a big risk of an insurance gap or that something like COBRA is unfairly priced, etc., but that would have more to do with unemployment insurance and virtually nothing to do with the basic structure of health insurance.

When I “churn” in the insurance market, it is almost always going to be a super short-term switch from Insurance A to Insurance B (both via employers) where A and B are incredibly similar.

That seems perfectly consistent with saying that people love employer-provided insurance quality. The employers have to offer the same high quality insurance everywhere, or else people won’t switch. As a result, they do provide the same high quality insurance everywhere, to ensure insurance is not a sticking point that creates job movement friction.

Of course there are outliers offering bad insurance and classes of labor like Wal-Mart retail staff that get screwed by deliberately bad corporate actors, and I’m sure anybody reading this with a personalized anecdote will angrily try to refute me.

But in the aggregate, these are exceptions, and most people like their insurance for the most part and find that almost all possible employers (for them) offer such a nearly fungible set of insurance plans that they can churn jobs without significantly worrying that the insurance they like will be very different at company A vs company B.

There could be many arguments for nationalized healthcare, but this article seems pretty much wrong from its main thesis. People “keep” the private insurance they like all the time, because “churning” the coverage is not at all similar to giving up the coverage or making concessions or compromises for the next plan of insurance you accept from an employer.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#107
post #92

The point of health insurance is to pay into a risk pool as a collective so that the small percentage of people who end up needing the largest percentage of health care, nobody dies or goes into monumental debt. This can be done via taxes but insurance is a private market solution which should in theory make it more efficient for the sake of maximizing profit. So then if it's supposedly more efficient, why do I waste…

> If I could choose to just pay more in taxes One of the fallacies in play is buying insurance is put in one category. Whereas paying taxes for insurance is another. The first is 'good' because it's 'free market' and the second is 'bad' because it's the government taking your money's.

>One of the fallacies in play is buying insurance is put in one category. Whereas paying taxes for insurance is another. The first is 'good' because it's 'free market' and the second is 'bad' because it's the government taking your money's.

Well, I'm in favor of socialized healthcare and generally receptive to increased taxation, so that's definitely not the implication I was going for. But it is true that there doesn't need to be a categorical consideration at all. A more sound statement would be "I as a consumer am willing to pay dollars equal to twice my current premiums to get healthcare coverage while avoiding hassles while receiving routine healthcare"

In truth I'm not making a blanket argument for any government-run healthcare system because alleviating my pain points necessarily depends on said system being efficient and well implemented. But I KNOW that the free market isn't suddenly going to start improving on these pain points without introduction of regulations to manage issues like competing doctor networks, confusing healthcare coding and opaque pricing, etc, and I have no trust that the free market types in congress have any interest in regulations of any kind, so I personally err on the side of socialized healthcare on this one.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#108
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually sounds like the high deductible plan is functioning as it should though. Causing consumers to price-shop and avoid price-gouging providers.

What if the cheaper place is cheaper cause it's not as capable ? How am I supposed to know? In what other scenario are we similarly encouraged to act on price alone? Price transparency is meaningless with quality transparency.

... and assessing quality in this space is way outside of what a normal consumer is capable of anyway.

The UK has periodically had a back and forth on whether the outcome ratio numbers which are collected for internal statistical measures should be published.

ie should we make it easy to get a number that says 4.6 for Mr Able, 5.2 for Ms Awesome and 3.8 for Mr Good?

At one extreme the reality may be that Mr Good isn't good and his numbers are low because he's a bad surgeon, he makes a lot of mistakes, his technique is not what it should be, he's using an approach that's outdated... that's a real problem, and maybe "patient choice" is a fix where colleagues may be reluctant to say "Fire Mr Good" because he's a good guy, he's not _terrible_ at his job, but yeah they would not themselves choose to be treated by him.

At the other extreme the reality may be that Mr Good is the only guy who'll take patients that Ms Awesome thinks are too high risk. She thinks it's better to say "No", he thinks if they seek medicine he should do his part. Maybe they're obese, or they won't stop smoking, or they won't stop doing the sport that's wrecking their body. And Ms Awesome is right that Mr Good's patients are higher risk, but that's not because he's doing a bad job, he's playing what was dealt.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#109
post #77
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually sounds like the high deductible plan is functioning as it should though. Causing consumers to price-shop and avoid price-gouging providers.

Sure, in the case of a scan that isn't urgent. If you were in a car accident and have a piece of metal embedded in your kidney are you in a level, clear-minded state to price shop about which emergency room won't gouge you? Health care is an inelastic good, we need it. So this is a market (much like having a military) that really benefits from the government stepping in and making things sane.

If you're in that dire an emergency you're going to max out your in-network limits anyway, so it doesn't really matter which emergency room you get taken to, you pay the same.

Re: People Lose Their Employer-Sponsored Insurance Constantly

#110
post #102
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the U.S. subsidizing the drug research R&D, who pays for it? You could fill notebooks with worthy, approachable hypotheses for any number of diseases that could show promise if given the funding. But if everyone makes it law to cap prices - fewer scientists, labs, studies are performed. The money has to come from somewhere. I think countries take for granted the progress we've made. No progress is made withou…

Ha! This is a silly talking point that lots of companies bounce around - you know how insulin costs money because it was so expensive to develop... Except no, it was invented in Canada and the researchers released the formula for free[1] as a "benefit to humanity" thing... then a few US companies acquired rights to produce it and proceeded to establish market control in the US - the fact that insulin isn't being sold…

Of course it does. Because people don’t buy and use the drug if they don’t know about it..?

Money matters. Marketing to recoup costs matters. Piles of cash to get every dollar of return on an investment matters. That allows the company to turn around and invest in future promising drugs, trials, other companies, marketing to bring awareness to the solution and hopefully get people to buy and use it.

Post reply on HN