Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#101

Post by usefulcat » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #47

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

A big part of the root cause of sucky gamedev working conditions (and I'm speaking mainly about developers here, as that is what I have first hand experience with) is the fact that a lot of people just really want to work on games and choose to put up with it. This is especially true for developers; there are plenty of developer jobs out there that are nothing like your typical game studio, and the skills that game developers have are not so unique to that industry that they couldn't find work elsewhere if they wanted to.

So yes, unions are one way to try to solve that problem. But if you choose to advocate for that, just be aware that attempting to solve these problems via a union would result in trading one set of problems for another: you'd probably end up with better working conditions, at a cost of new, artificial barriers to entry for all those people who want to work in that industry. Maybe it would be worth it, I don't know, but given the root causes, it definitely seems like this tradeoff would exist.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#102

Post by praptak » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

The market discounts the coolness factor of being in the game industry, so you effectively pay for being a game developer by crappy work conditions.

Regarding the unionizing unions, I don't think I can express this better than RMS: "All in all, I think it is a mistake to defend people’s rights with one hand tied behind our backs, using nothing except the individual option to say no to a deal. We should use democracy to organize and together impose limits on what the rich can do to the rest of us. That’s what democracy was invented for!"

He was talking about human rights but this argument applies as well to work conditions.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#103

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #27

lovetocode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s toxic culture at the leadership level. When my employer asks for some outrageous development on a compressed time schedule I speak my mind. Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

In my experience it was the ic level. Leadership would say, what's a reasonable timeline for feature x. The engineers would spend two hours arguing that estimates are bullshit, then give a trivially small (and obviously wrong) estimate. Leadership would say, are you sure? Engineers would basically flip them the bird and say yes. Then inevitably be late. I get it, estimating is inexact. But there's a clear difference…

That’s not my experience. When asked for an estimate you usually already know the politically correct number. I have never got away with giving the number I think will be realistic.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#104

Post by tertius » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #47

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

Forming a union is not growing a spine. It's combining the wish of a spine with 100 others until you collectively have a spine.

I'm not against unions, but his suggestion is about the individual.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#105

Post by brucemoose » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

This seems all too often the case with development work in general. I see the same type of unreasonable expectations in devops.

Maybe it's compounded by the software industry liking to hire young people with less experience but more free time. They may not yet have the soft skills to navigate unreasonable demands and give hard answers, and logistically a single person can more easily pull extra hours.

I've found that as I get older it has become easier to push back on unpaid overtime type work (or simply not do it). Because it would be damaging to my family and relationships if I didn't, and that's a powerful motivator for me.

But at the same time it's hard to compete with the output of people who somehow can grind all day every day, and through the weekend. I don't know if there's a way to level the playing field as long as employers are allowing and even encouraging this kind of unpaid self sacrifice.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#106

Post by djsumdog » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

vonseel wrote: post #51

Pfhreak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. In my experience, that attitude is common and not limited to game developers or even programmers in general. American working culture tends to respect those who go above and beyond, or at least maintain the appearance of doing so.

I've only worked at two places that were like this and they were both shit shops. I think people who stay at these places don't understand it isn't by any means normal.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#107

Post by armagon » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

lvturner wrote: post #41

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

Very easy to say, a lot harder to do Equally, finally leaving the games industry was one of the better things I did.

What is the best way to leave?

I look at the experience required on the 'Who is Hiring' threads and sigh -- how am I supposed to get two years' professional experience using a technology that has nothing to do with games, or, how do I pick which tech to invest my time in, given that everything seems to be changing so quickly?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#108

Post by School-Cotton » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #69

lovetocode wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

Would be interesting to know exactly why you think (even if you know you don't know) unionization are not so good. So far on HN, I've noticed that people from the US seems to not like the idea at all about unionization while people from EU (me included!) see unionization as something good that protect workers. I do know that efforts around unionization are very strong in Europe, and helpful for the workers. Maybe the…

It’s a combination of multiple reasons.

First, culturally, US Americans are much more individualist than most Europeans. (Obviously I am painting with broad strokes here, but it’s true in a general sense, on average). US Americans are somewhat less likely to feel solidarity or a sense of common cause with coworkers, and more likely to value the freedom to negotiate their contract on their own.

They are also much more likely to distrust large organizations and bureaucracy, sometimes to an extreme extent that would be puzzling to Western and Northern Europeans. Rather than being on their side, many would perceive the union as just one more large bureaucracy trying to screw them.

Third, there are many current examples of unions in the US that have made industries meaningfully less efficient. And highly-paid US Americans are less likely to see themselves as oppressed by their employers and more likely to see themselves as making common cause: after all, they have a common goal of making a lot of money. If my company, say, found it harder to fire low performers (an almost certain consequence of a union), it would be less efficient, make less profit, and be less able to pay me my current high salary.

I hope I’ve genuinely answered your question and given you some insight into the mindset without implying either side is right or wrong. Just different viewpoints...

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#109

Post by gowld » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #50

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge; significantly more than in non game dev. The games industry is powered by huge numbers of low-experience software engineers. They get paid in glamour and the thrill of being able to tell their friends they work in games. They could leave and go somewhere else for more money, but they…

People say that, but what's the glamour? Do you have friends in AAA gamedev? Do you think that's cool? Do their parents? Their little brothers?

You know who is cool? the 2-3 people who designed and built Pac-Mac, or Legend of Zelda, or Braid, or Papers Please. Not the people making guns for Call of War 7 that's a clone of a dozen other AAA games.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#110

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

lovetocode wrote: post #24

kabacha wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you come off a bit rough on victim blaming you do have a point. Video-game developers should have formed a union long time ago but here we are. I somewhat lack sympathy when the industry is clear as water about abuse like this yet people still go into it without precaution.

Fair enough and you are probably right. I come from the position that you can only beat a dog so long before it bites back. But I feel like this could have been prevented if developers weren’t so enamored with the idea of developing games. Yeah it’s cool but it’s not cool enough to throw your dignity away.

“ I come from the position that you can only beat a dog so long before it bites back. ”

If done right you can beat the dog for a very long time and if the dog actually bites back you get rid of it and get another one.