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Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

nytimes.com

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Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#101

Post by CydeWeys »

johnnycab wrote: post #93
londons_explore wrote: post #84

London made the mistake of excluding Taxis from their congestion toll scheme. Now nearly all roads are jam packed with Taxis and Ubers, and no regular people drive at all anymore.

>London made the mistake of excluding Taxis from their congestion toll scheme. It is a very simplistic view to call it a mistake, as the the issues and policies related to the Congestion Charge have changed and evolved over the last 16 years. For example, the PHV (Private Hire Vehicle) will not be exempt from the charge from 8th April 2019. However, licensed Taxi's (Black cabs) were still deemed to be exempt from the…

In NYC we have a huge problem of placard abuse, and placarded people would presumably be excluded from the congestion charges, a huge mistake. A pointer to more information: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/02/21/why-mayor-de-blasios-...

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#102

Post by ceejayoz »

toasterlovin wrote: post #34
CedarMadness wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)

Or just get new tires in a neighboring state.

There's a Federal-level excise tax on gasoline, so you could take that approach with tires. I don't think it's a great idea, though... too many people already drive on shitty tires years past their prime.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#103

Post by CydeWeys »

snissn wrote: post #59

I literally don't understand what this is and how it will work. It's like ez pass for certain zones of nyc? Will it only be for certain hours? Will they bill from traffic cameras? "Congestion pricing" is a brand new term to me and I don't see a clean definition.. Sorry if I missed it in the article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing

This kind of system is already implemented in many major cities, including London, Singapore, Paris, Stockholm, and Milan.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#104

Post by CydeWeys »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #39

Unintended consequence: driving in Manhattan will be de facto off-limits to the poor.

An unlimited MetroCard costs $121/month (or $61/month if you're >65 or disabled) and is good for all subway lines and buses. That's way, way, way less than the cost of owning a vehicle here -- parking in my building is $60 for 3 or more hours, for comparison's sake.

Driving in NYC is already off-limits to the poor and has been for awhile. Congestion pricing will be a net benefit to them because it will get a lot of car traffic off the road, thus reducing the chance of being struck by a vehicle (as a pedestrian), making buses much faster, and making biking more viable. Some of the poorest residents of NYC just use bikes, for example -- even the $121/month MetroCard is too much for them. Building out the bike lane network more would help them the most.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#105

Post by CydeWeys »

baddox wrote: post #54
jchanimal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally you want to tax things you want less of and subsidize what you want more of. Hence taxing car traffic and subsidizing transit.

I don’t know if I like your model. I would say tax things in order to remove negative externalities, then people will decide what they want more of.

These models are pretty much the same, just phrased a little bit differently. The reason you tax things you want less of is usually because of their negative externalities (and definitely is so in this circumstance).

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#106

Post by TheCoelacanth »

paganel wrote: post #82
Alex3917 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people don't own cars, but subsidize the cars of those who do. Congestion pricing helps to fix that. The book Deschooling Society has a good explanation about how the design of public roads is used as a means of social control. Ctrl-F for the section on mechanical donkeys. https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Soc...

Poor people do own cars, it’s the rich that think that they don’t.

Not in Manhattan, they don't.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#107

Post by NullPrefix »

londons_explore wrote: post #83

They need to make the toll dynamic. Eg. "New York's streets can optimally handle 1 million journeys per day. If the number of journeys is above/below that for 3 straight months, we increase/decrease the toll by 10%. That way the roads stay near peak efficiency without needing the politicians to get involved every time the streets get too busy or too empty.

Something like Bitcoin mining difficulty?

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#108

Post by johnnycab »

CydeWeys wrote: post #101
johnnycab wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>London made the mistake of excluding Taxis from their congestion toll scheme. It is a very simplistic view to call it a mistake, as the the issues and policies related to the Congestion Charge have changed and evolved over the last 16 years. For example, the PHV (Private Hire Vehicle) will not be exempt from the charge from 8th April 2019. However, licensed Taxi's (Black cabs) were still deemed to be exempt from the…

In NYC we have a huge problem of placard abuse, and placarded people would presumably be excluded from the congestion charges, a huge mistake. A pointer to more information: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/02/21/why-mayor-de-blasios-...

Thanks for the link. The only parallel I can draw with London proper in this case would be the 'Blue Badge' abuse. Although, it seems trivial in comparison to the Placard abuse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46715503

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#109

Post by paganel »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #106
paganel wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people do own cars, it’s the rich that think that they don’t.

Not in Manhattan, they don't.

They probably would have if the regressive taxes (direct or indirect) related to owning a car in New York wouldn’t have been so high. But when you buy a $200 million penthouse you don’t want to breath in the engine fumes of a $1,000 daily driver.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#110

Post by ses1984 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #99
ses1984 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your subway fare goes into the city budget. The cost of the subway system comes out of the city budget. Your subway fare only "directly finances" the subway system as long as it's convenient to think of it that way. If there was ever a huge surplus of subway money, it would go to other projects. If there was ever a huge deficit elsewhere, money would come out of the subway system.

Perhaps, depending on the city. I believe the NYC subway is state run. So to be clear, you do consider subway and bus tickets to be taxes? How about US postage stamps? Public utility bills?

All that really matters is the effect on the bottom line, not the what you call each line item. Some debits map very logically to services like public utility bills, you pay for what you use, so it's convenieng to think of it in terms of usage fees instead of taxes. Some things don't map that clearly, like real estate taxes or sales tax, so it's convenient to think of them ad taxes.
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