Live data from Hacker News

Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

101–110 of 305 posts

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#101

Just because you don't like be censored, you'd rather deprive every Chinese's access to information of much much better quality. Yes, a few percent of searches will be censored, but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's. Yet the righteous Google employees rather let people die of misinformation provided by Baidu( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi ). They'd rather see event like this…

>but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's

And you know this how, given that google hasn't operated in china for the last ten years?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#102
post #101

Just because you don't like be censored, you'd rather deprive every Chinese's access to information of much much better quality. Yes, a few percent of searches will be censored, but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's. Yet the righteous Google employees rather let people die of misinformation provided by Baidu( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi ). They'd rather see event like this…

>but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's And you know this how, given that google hasn't operated in china for the last ten years?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/10/16/google-...

Okay, let's say you don't trust Google's number, then think about this: how many web pages are about politics that are sensitive to Chinese government, and how many web pages are about our everyday life?

Edit: oh you mean quality of Google search compared with Baidu's? Well, for one, Google does not use paid listing, and there are numerous reports that compare Google and Baidu's search quality.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#103

Just because you don't like be censored, you'd rather deprive every Chinese's access to information of much much better quality. Yes, a few percent of searches will be censored, but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's. Yet the righteous Google employees rather let people die of misinformation provided by Baidu( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi ). They'd rather see event like this…

Wow, this is the most insane argument I have ever heard for censored search by Google in China. Arguing that Google search is some moral good that Google has a moral obligation to bestow upon the Chinese people lest their “quality life [sic]” suffer is the most laughable claim I have heard this year.

It is reasonable to argue that Google either should or shouldn’t respect Chinese laws in this area. Your line of reasoning is just way off the mark.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#104

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

> Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

Rather than fight it, wouldn't it have been more effective to try to replace it?

A couple of really smart folks with some funding can found "NotGoogle, and actually not evil."

Breaking Google's monopoly would do far more good than just taking on this single issue.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they'll also have complete control over them" "But why should Googlers care?" This is a dumb take. Googlers are the one reporting/protesting all of these things. This is a very different situation than Facebook where most of the leaking has been external. It's also different than HN's reaction to Apple, which apparently can whatever it wants to its Chinese users. The world is not black and white, it is gray. And som…

Here are two realistic facts: 1. Google would be absolutely fine if they do not expand into China. They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. You've worked at Google for over a decade so you should know this is true. 2. Google's censored search engine would absolutely facilitate Xi Jinping ability to censor the Chinese people and would set a dangerous precedent for other g…

There isn't anything gray at the level of individual, straightforward morals considered in a vacuum—I think censorship is generally bad, therefore Google's decision to engage in censorship is bad.

Considered at a global scale, however, the outcomes of the collisions of interests of the many groups involved does not make this a simple issue. We have to examine, and this is not completely granular nor exhaustive list:

1. The interests of Google "the company" (execs) 2. The interests of the Chinese nation state 3. The interests of the Chinese people 4. The interests of the US nation state 5. The interests of Google employees

All of these interests intersect in interesting ways and the groups behind them may be for or against the motion. For example, Chinese citizens might be excited at the prospect of getting a higher quality search engine, even if it censors some results. The US might be interested in a broader form of censorship (no Google at all) in order to maintain some kind of global hegemony (or vice versa, to bring money into the US from a foreign market). The Chinese government may be interested in the service for different purposes than those of its citizens (tracking).

The list goes on.

I agree that the threat of a dangerous precedent is in play, but I also would like to point out that simply because a precedent was established doesn't make further applications of it inviolable, nor does it prevent an actor (e.g. Google) from breaking an agreement if they discover their tooling has been used for purposes more nefarious than basic censorship (e.g. putting people in prison camps).

There's not even anything binding Google to democratic principles nor the interests of the US nation state. We may like to think companies reflect our values as a nation, but outside of those imposed by the law, there is nothing binding them to doing so.

I'm not an advocate of the project, but I do think painting it as a simple moral question glosses over the many nuances and complexities of the issue. In some respects I find taking a reductive approach to these issues and treating them as unproblematic black/white moral questions is also dangerous, as not fully exploring the issue in its depth prevents us from seeing the potentially major effects a decision may have.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#106

Just because you don't like be censored, you'd rather deprive every Chinese's access to information of much much better quality. Yes, a few percent of searches will be censored, but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's. Yet the righteous Google employees rather let people die of misinformation provided by Baidu( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi ). They'd rather see event like this…

Wow, this is the most insane argument I have ever heard for censored search by Google in China. Arguing that Google search is some moral good that Google has a moral obligation to bestow upon the Chinese people lest their “quality life [sic]” suffer is the most laughable claim I have heard this year. It is reasonable to argue that Google either should or shouldn’t respect Chinese laws in this area. Your line of reaso…

You're right. It's reasonable to argue that Google should or shouldn't respect Chinese laws, and I never implies that Google has a moral obligation to Chinese people. I just want to point out the hypocrisy in the argument that Google is immoral to provide a censored search service in China when it's clear that Google's search service provides much better results than the Baidu.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#107
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

As I stated in a comment questioning what possible impact this project could have: "My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?" google.com exists and serves Chinese queries. If the Chinese C…

Not that the extreme methods are morally justified, but FLG is basically Chinese Scientology with the homophobic pieces as well as convincing people to forgo modern medicine for prayer. People die from it. Anti-Vax isn’t even that popular in the US and people are already clamoring for parents to be locked up.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#108

I don't get the pushback....you signed up to work for a for-profit publicly traded corporation. You received your benefits and compensation. Now suddenly, you have a problem with your employer trying to do its job which is continue to please wall street that impacts the share price? it's kinda like that pushback from MS that was puzzling too....whether you like it or not, the very work you are doing in university to…

There's no reason why a worker can't seek to influence the company that they work for, on behalf of their own self interest, which could include their moral sensibilities.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#109
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

It doesn't matter if it changes anything. It's about having principles and standing for something. We're a part of this world, and we have a duty to do the things we think are right. Not everything in life is a god damn utility maximization function. Sometimes you have to do the right thing because you want others to act the same way you do, and because it's wrong to build tools for future totalitarian rulers.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#110
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

> Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it. Rather than fight it, wouldn't it have been more effective to try to replace it? A couple of really smart folks with some funding can found "NotGoogle, and actually not evil." Breaking Google's monopoly would do far more good than just taking on this single issue.

> Rather than fight it, wouldn't it have been more effective to try to replace it?

No, probably not, even if it would be more effective if you did actually replace it.

> A couple of really smart folks with some funding can found "NotGoogle, and actually not evil."

Isn't that the concept of DDF?

> Breaking Google's monopoly would do far more good than just taking on this single issue.

Perhaps. But if displacing Google were “easy” (like on the scale of “it would only take some of the best tech talent in the world and an enormous supply of capital”), the FAA and M of FAANGMAN, and some others, would each already have done it.

Post reply on HN