Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#101

Post by gaius » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #62

maxxxxx wrote: post #38

I don't even eat meat but I find it difficult to be angry about this when at the same time at home we have millions (billions?) of farm animals live in absolutely terrible conditions. Reminds me a little of the outrage in CA about horse meat. There are plenty of people who think eating horse meat is morally wrong while at the same time they eat some salad with bacon on top. Why is a horse better than a pig? Certainly…

Reminds me a little of the outrage in CA about horse meat. There are plenty of people who think eating horse meat is morally wrong while at the same time they eat some salad with bacon on top There was of course an extensive horse meat scandal in the UK as well, but I didn’t encounter anybody at that time describing the consumption of horse meat as “morally wrong”. Mislabelling of products, fraud, and food safety - t…

The U.K. is next door to France where eating horse is common. Many if not most British kids will have at least tried horse on a school trip to France. The French also eat frogs and snails.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#102

Post by innocentoldguy » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

endangered wrote: post #47

maxxxxx wrote: post #38

I don't even eat meat but I find it difficult to be angry about this when at the same time at home we have millions (billions?) of farm animals live in absolutely terrible conditions. Reminds me a little of the outrage in CA about horse meat. There are plenty of people who think eating horse meat is morally wrong while at the same time they eat some salad with bacon on top. Why is a horse better than a pig? Certainly…

I don't think this is a fair comparison because we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits. On the other hand there is no way to breed whales. There is some finite number of them in the wild and we cannot actively endeavor to create more. Commercial farming of farm animals will not cause the extinction of farm animals; commercial farming of whales will c…

> we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits.

I'm not sure this justification works. After all, if someone started breeding dogs or African Greys for human consumption in the U.S. in a way that was sustainable, people would still be outraged by it.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#103

Post by issa » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

kenneth wrote: post #94

Denouncing the consumption of meat from certain species of animals (like whales or dogs or foir gras) while happily eating burgers and chickens and tuna is utter hypocrisy. We need to work with Japan and other whaling countries to set sustainable quotas. But the condescending moral judgements need to end. There's nothing inherently different about eating a whale and a hundred chicken. Personally I try very hard not t…

This is much more complicated than it might initially seem. It can be argued that a whale can suffer at a higher level than a chicken can. Even though this clearly isn't your point, I agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence and I believe that we shouldn't kill any animals at all.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#104

Post by tossaccount123 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #74

siffland wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are comparing pigs and cows to whaling you are comparing apples and oranges. Pigs and cows and such are farm raised animals for the purpose of slaughter. If you compared it to hunting deer and moose and elephants and lions and whatnot that would be more of a comparison. Still the difference there is individuals are getting hunting licenses as opposed to an entire country. You can compare tuna fishing and crabb…

> If you are comparing pigs and cows to whaling you are comparing apples and oranges. Pigs and cows and such are farm raised animals for the purpose of slaughter. That's just an artificial distinction. They didn't began their lives as "farm raised animals for the purpose of slaughter".

>They didn't began their lives as "farm raised animals for the purpose of slaughter".

they did though, cows were domesticated from aurochs and pigs from wild boars for the express purpose of making them easier to slaughter as livestock rather than having to hunt them. Same for chickens. Is it humane? I don't know but they they wouldn't exist in their present form if not for humans domesticating and breeding them for their current characteristics

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#105

Post by coldtea » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

sc4les wrote: post #90

coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. No, it's more like: "We do this for a long time, and we consider this part of who we are, and we like it, and want to keep doing it. We're not idiots to just do it because we did it in the past, and in fact, we have opted to drop tons of things that we did in th…

Hm but it depends whether there is a victim involved or not IMHO

Sure, but one can say that for eating burgers too.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#106

Post by d0100 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #56

endangered wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a fair comparison because we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits. On the other hand there is no way to breed whales. There is some finite number of them in the wild and we cannot actively endeavor to create more. Commercial farming of farm animals will not cause the extinction of farm animals; commercial farming of whales will c…

" I don't think this is a fair comparison because we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits." They still suffer greatly. Maybe a little extreme but by the same logic we could breed humans for slavery and say that it's OK because they got bred for it. "commercial farming of whales will cause the extinction of whales. " Not if done with proper quotas. It'…

> Maybe a little extreme but by the same logic we could breed humans for slavery and say that it's OK because they got bred for it.

The day an animal can articulate that, I'll agree with you.

Until then such comparison bears no meaning.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#107

Post by tossaccount123 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #79

paraditedc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been thinking about the issue of "saving the planet", which is similar to "saving the endangered spices from extinctions". Ultimately I think humans are just selfish by nature and they only do things to ensure the continuation of humans as a spices. Everything else is sugar-coating it. So really, there is no morality to be discussed, it is just natural instinct. My unpopular thoughts on global warming: https:/…

Humans are much more selfish than that. Almost nobody cares about the species. They care about themselves, their family, maybe their neighborhood, and if you’re really lucky they might care about their country.

Does any other animal species care about things other than themselves? Natural selection would weed out individuals who were too altruistic, if you're looking for something to blame you're going to have to blame thousands of years of evolution selecting for the cruelest and greediest organisms

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#108

Post by coldtea » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #87

coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "tradition" argument is interesting: We'll keep on doing this, because we've been doing it for a while, so let's not consider whether it's appropriate. No, it's more like: "We do this for a long time, and we consider this part of who we are, and we like it, and want to keep doing it. We're not idiots to just do it because we did it in the past, and in fact, we have opted to drop tons of things that we did in th…

So why even argue that? Why not just say "I like whale meat"? I hate this "it's a tradition" bullshit. Just say it, stop hiding behind traditions.

Because they don't just like it like animals like stuff.

They like it as meat, but they also like the parts of their culture associated with it.

The same way an American would like the turkey AND the thanksgiving dinner, and would like to continue having both, and not just because of turkey meat, but as a combo.

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#109

Post by coldtea » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

mr_overalls wrote: post #77

coldtea wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because they are free to mix and match from their cultural heritage, and keep some parts while developing others (and adding new stuff to it). When we're talking about "cultural heritage", we mean respecting their choices regarding their cultural heritage (including abandoning parts of it). Not that they should absolutely stick to older practices on every aspect of life.

A few hundred years ago, men in many countries were allowed to beat their wives and children with few restrictions. Need I also mention that slavery and child labor were legal? Historical legacy is absolutely no rationale for continuing to cause needless suffering in intelligent beings.

Who is to say what is "needless"?

Re: Japan to withdraw from the International Whaling Commission

#110

Post by ineedasername » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

sc4les wrote: post #96

endangered wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is a fair comparison because we breed these animals for farming, so technically we could breed as many as we need to sustain our habits. On the other hand there is no way to breed whales. There is some finite number of them in the wild and we cannot actively endeavor to create more. Commercial farming of farm animals will not cause the extinction of farm animals; commercial farming of whales will c…

So it’s only immoral if the number of the animals is really low? Seems like an arbitrary trait to determine whether animals deserve to live or not

The implication of your comment you're arguing that allowing a species to risk extinction is somehow equivalent to breeding animals for slaughter as a food source. That a person cannot both be at ease with such farming of animals an at the same time, without contradiction, see value in preserving some other species from risk of extinction.

This is a rather obtuse outlook on your part. It should not be difficult to see that these positions on killing animals are not logically equivalent, or logically exclusive of each other.

Even forgetting about any concept of morality or ethics for a moment, from a purely utilitarian viewpoint raising animals for food isn't mutually exclusive with wanting to preserve the balance in an ecosystem in which whales play a part, and whose disruption could have far-reaching implications.