Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

fascinatingmaps.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 156 posts

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#101

Post by Pyrodogg »

lisper wrote: post #78
zxexz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The India-Bangladesh border is really fascinating. Looks like it was infinitely more complicated before 2015[0] Dahagram[1] appears to be the only major enclave that wasn't exchanged. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%80%93Bangladesh_encla... [1] https://goo.gl/maps/Zgs1wsxqvo12

Heh, I didn't even realize they'd cleaned it up. That border first came to my attention in August 2015 and all those enclaves and meta-enclaves were still there. Apparently I caught them right before they disappeared. It's kind of a shame in a way. Makes the world a little less interesting.

You may find this a funny video covering the complex border situation, and the 2015 change. Especially the sadness over loosing such a fantastic map.

India/Bangladesh - The world's worst border by Jay Foreman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-aIzkvPwFo

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#102

Post by lucideer »

avar wrote: post #75
lucideer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of every 60 days.

> It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen[...] It's controversial, but it doesn't nullify Schengen, because these countries are using provisions of the Schengen agreement to implement these border controls. See "When can countries re-impose border controls?" in this BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13194723

You are technically correct—I did mention these checks are allowed by the agreement.

But I guess what I meant by saying it "nullifies" Schengen is that it makes it redundant within its own bounds. i.e. pushing minor provisions of the agreement to the point that the motivation for creating Schengen is thwarted.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#103

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

jstanley wrote: post #94
HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not then essentially arguing that states have no sovereignty? If so, how far do you take it - do individuals? Can any migrant - legal or not - rock up to your house and start camping on your lawn?

In my world there would be no such thing as an "illegal" migrant. And, the distinction would be between public places and private places. Anybody is free to exist in any public place with no permission required (just like you are already allowed to do once you're in the country). It would all be exactly the same as it is now, except there are no checks at the border, and no visa requirements.

Do you seriously think the quality of life wouldn't deteriorate rapidly if this was the case? Or is that not your concern? Or would it not effect your area, so you don't care?

I think it's utopian to believe that this would lead to anything but slums and shanty towns. People with no wealth will all flock to areas with wealth, which won't have the infrastructure to support them. They'd camp out wherever they could with whatever they could - possibly right outside your house. Probably in your back yard actually - local law enforcement would be too overwhelmed to go around persecuting squatting or trespassing.

Travel to a large city in India to see what happens when free movement is coupled with massive inequality.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#104

Post by lucideer »

BjoernKW wrote: post #95
jstanley wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

I agree that no borders at all is a desirable state. However, in order to achieve this, certain prerequisites have to be met first. Opening borders has to be accompanied and indeed preceded by economic development. The Schengen agreement for example only works because of the relatively similar economic situations of the member countries and even then it unfortunately has been a considerable cause for discord in recen…

Your prerequisite doesn't follow through to your (apparent?) conclusion; there's no logical connection I can see.

Let's say opening borders does have to to be accompanied by economic development: fine. How does that then not work when migration occurs from areas with different economic situations?

You seem to be proposing that migrants from economically areas necessarily depress a developed economy?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#105

Post by zrail »

lisper wrote: post #65
dividuum wrote: post #12

Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle. They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium surrounded by Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316 Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied. https://en…

My favorite is the border between India and Bangladesh: https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@26.2070568,89.16078... You have to zoom in to fully appreciate it. It looks like a fractal.

It is/was mindboggling complicated but also keep in mind the events that produced it (the partition of India) also resulted in millions of deaths and 14 million people being displaced. It’s an incredibly sad story.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#106

Post by BjoernKW »

jstanley wrote: post #99
BjoernKW wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that no borders at all is a desirable state. However, in order to achieve this, certain prerequisites have to be met first. Opening borders has to be accompanied and indeed preceded by economic development. The Schengen agreement for example only works because of the relatively similar economic situations of the member countries and even then it unfortunately has been a considerable cause for discord in recen…

What bad things do you think would happen if opening borders were not accompanied or preceded by economic development? Or, to put it another way: what gives you the right to exist in a public place in the country you live in, but not a poorer person?

I'm well aware of the fact that this is an ethical dilemma and that simply by winning the birth lottery one isn't morally entitled to living at a certain place any more than everybody else is.

However, an argument can be made for the self-determination of groups as well, particularly their freedom of association (or lack thereof).

Then there are more pragmatic matters. You can't simply let people starve if they can't provide for themselves. Providing for everyone who chooses to stay at a place but can't actually afford to do so might just not be economically feasible.

Sure, over time these differentials will be evened out because people won't come to a place if it doesn't make economic sense to do so but simply opening all borders without taking possible consequences into account could lead to quite harsh outcomes.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#107

Post by lisper »

zrail wrote: post #105
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite is the border between India and Bangladesh: https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@26.2070568,89.16078... You have to zoom in to fully appreciate it. It looks like a fractal.

It is/was mindboggling complicated but also keep in mind the events that produced it (the partition of India) also resulted in millions of deaths and 14 million people being displaced. It’s an incredibly sad story.

Yeah, well, there is that :-(

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#108

Post by BjoernKW »

lucideer wrote: post #104
BjoernKW wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that no borders at all is a desirable state. However, in order to achieve this, certain prerequisites have to be met first. Opening borders has to be accompanied and indeed preceded by economic development. The Schengen agreement for example only works because of the relatively similar economic situations of the member countries and even then it unfortunately has been a considerable cause for discord in recen…

Your prerequisite doesn't follow through to your (apparent?) conclusion; there's no logical connection I can see. Let's say opening borders does have to to be accompanied by economic development: fine. How does that then not work when migration occurs from areas with different economic situations? You seem to be proposing that migrants from economically areas necessarily depress a developed economy?

No, that's not what I'm suggesting. Migration can be economically beneficial. It's a matter of how many in what time frame.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#109

Post by neonate »

tormeh wrote: post #26

My favorite is Lake Constance. Switzerland and Austria disagree on where exactly the borders are, but both think Germany holds a part of it. Germany has no stated position on the subject. It has to be the world's most relaxed border dispute.

https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-and-denmark-whiskey-w... is another relaxed one.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#110

Post by danbruc »

tormeh wrote: post #26

My favorite is Lake Constance. Switzerland and Austria disagree on where exactly the borders are, but both think Germany holds a part of it. Germany has no stated position on the subject. It has to be the world's most relaxed border dispute.

Short (2:31) video [1] on this by Tom Scott.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwHj4lj3F-k

Post reply on HN