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German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

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Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#71

Post by seszett »

galago wrote: post #31
gammateam wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to being able to.

Can't we just all agree to speak English? No, I don't think that would be a good idea. Perhaps they could write a (albeit imperfect) tool to alert readers when another language has a much larger or more comprehensive article. I'm sure the Wikipedians have considered the fact that some information is better presented in a particular language. For example, an article about Shakespeare will be more precise in English th…

As far as I remember (I can't check now) articles in foreign Wikipedias that have a "silver" or "gold" status are shown with a star in the list.

It might not be obvious to English speaking visitors as I suppose they don't pay much attention to the list, but visitors who speak multiple languages often switch between them to get the most information.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#72

Post by zxexz »

lisper wrote: post #65
dividuum wrote: post #12

Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle. They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium surrounded by Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316 Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied. https://en…

My favorite is the border between India and Bangladesh: https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@26.2070568,89.16078... You have to zoom in to fully appreciate it. It looks like a fractal.

The India-Bangladesh border is really fascinating. Looks like it was infinitely more complicated before 2015[0] Dahagram[1] appears to be the only major enclave that wasn't exchanged.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%80%93Bangladesh_encla...

[1] https://goo.gl/maps/Zgs1wsxqvo12

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#73

Post by johannes1234321 »

jamiegreen wrote: post #46
lucideer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of every 60 days.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It is paranoia or rather political acting, since right next to the "controlled" borders there are smaller streets and paths without controlled border and there are multiple reports about those border officers not finding anything of relevance (from time to time they notice something like overloaded cars and those kind of offenses, but that's not a border protection issue, but regular police work)

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#74

Post by zaarn »

denzil_correa wrote: post #48
FigBug wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in the EU are you supposed to carry your passport whenever you move between countries?

No, you don't if you are an EU national [0]. > If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another. [0] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-c...

That's only true for Schengen (which is a limited selection) and doesn't cover you having to show ID or passport to customs or simple random checks.

This merely covers having to show your ID or passport for crossing the border, you're still beholden to the laws of the country you enter.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#75

Post by avar »

lucideer wrote: post #11
FigBug wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I was expecting when I drove between Switzerland-Italy in 2016. Except I was stopped, told to park, had my passport examined with with a loupe, and then was sent on my way. Are the borders back to normal now?

A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of every 60 days.

> It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen[...]

It's controversial, but it doesn't nullify Schengen, because these countries are using provisions of the Schengen agreement to implement these border controls. See "When can countries re-impose border controls?" in this BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13194723

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#76

Post by tim333 »

Forge36 wrote: post #30
gammateam wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to being able to.

Do you speak German? Would you mind translating parts? I can give it a go, however my German skills aren't great.

The Google translate is quite readable.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#77

Post by gshubert17 »

randallsquared wrote: post #35
OscarCunningham wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the U.S. have forgotten the meaning of the word "state".

For the most part, the US "states" stopped being states in the political sense when the Articles were replaced by the Constitution, and deliberately so.

And even more so after the huge increase in federal power during and after the Civil War (1861-65). Before the Civil War, people often said "The United States are in the Western hemisphere". By the twentieth century it was more often that "The United States is ...".

https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/the-united-sta...

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#78

Post by lisper »

zxexz wrote: post #72
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite is the border between India and Bangladesh: https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@26.2070568,89.16078... You have to zoom in to fully appreciate it. It looks like a fractal.

The India-Bangladesh border is really fascinating. Looks like it was infinitely more complicated before 2015[0] Dahagram[1] appears to be the only major enclave that wasn't exchanged. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%80%93Bangladesh_encla... [1] https://goo.gl/maps/Zgs1wsxqvo12

Heh, I didn't even realize they'd cleaned it up. That border first came to my attention in August 2015 and all those enclaves and meta-enclaves were still there. Apparently I caught them right before they disappeared. It's kind of a shame in a way. Makes the world a little less interesting.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#79

Post by johannes1234321 »

jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

There is a need for rule setting. Starting from rules about capital crimes to local organisational of roads or house construction. If we rule out anarchy as a way to rule this this needs some form of governing body and the exact form of those have cultural, geographic, population, ... differences which need to be respected. There is no global agreement on many of those things. How are different crimes valuated and punished, is a high density road network needed or more public infrastructure. Doing those things in smaller units has benefits, for doing that you need borders to define which rules are valid where. Of course such borders are to a large degree virtual (i.e. you often don't see the exact city borders) and not borders with guards and fences.

On top of that then come all sorts of historic, cultural, ... reasons to "protect" each other which have all complex reasoning. Power-hungry politicians are only a quite limited reasoning, as many borders are supported by societies (by far not all, though)

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#80

Post by eMSF »

jstanley wrote: post #70
jamiegreen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.

Of course it's more sensible. A town doesn't have the same authority as the state. Although it's perhaps hard to see that from so far left of the field.
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