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The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

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Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#101

Post by cafard »

hodgesrm wrote: post #68
jungler wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I had observed all of it, I would be implicated, wouldn't I? Most of the material comes second-hand. It's not hard to open up a biography of a powerful figure and dissect it.

It seems more likely that at certain times elites have found they have more in common with each other than the lower classes even across religious or ethnic boundaries. This was certainly true for at least part of the Middle Ages. As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan

Some rather limited parts of the Middle Ages, perhaps. The Burgundians and Valois were pretty hard on each other.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#102

Post by coldtea »

majos wrote: post #49
jungler wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My observation is that elites tend towards keeping around multiple forms of mutual blackmail in their pockets so that they stay in a cease-fire arrangement: e.g. all the conspiracy/cult stories where everyone is made an equal participant in some crime or disturbing ritual. This allows them to avoid simply killing each other(too risky) while still allowing credible threats to power, and gatekeeping contenders who won'…

This is your observation about elites, or your theory? Saying that you've regularly observed elites keeping blackmail on each other in their pockets seems...deserving of elaboration.

Have a study at legal cases of elites. Just the things proved in courts. You'll get a good idea about how the world works without fearing you're a "conspiracist".

Do it for a place like Italy as well, if you want to get really scared.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#103

Post by coldtea »

hodgesrm wrote: post #68
jungler wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I had observed all of it, I would be implicated, wouldn't I? Most of the material comes second-hand. It's not hard to open up a biography of a powerful figure and dissect it.

It seems more likely that at certain times elites have found they have more in common with each other than the lower classes even across religious or ethnic boundaries. This was certainly true for at least part of the Middle Ages. As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan

>As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings."

And yet, most kings were killed by other kings or elite wannabe kings.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#104

Post by coldtea »

bilbo0s wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #11

I am kind of surprised billionaires and CEOs don't order each others' killings more often. I was doing homework one night and the building next door's top 2 floors were blown up because some banker had a hit placed on his head. So perhaps I have pretty low expectations on what powerful people without morals can do.

> I was doing homework one night and the building next door's top 2 floors were blown up because some banker had a hit placed on his head... Wait. What? Did this really happen somewhere? (Sorry for the question if it's stupid, I just was unaware of all of this.)

Such things happen all the time all around the world, but even more so in Eastern Europe, Latin America, SE Asia, and so on.

You could fill pages with such things in a place like Mexico...

Some examples from a quick search and mainly focused on bankers -- if expand it to business magnates in general, there are tons of such cases...

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-the-silencing-of-maltas-an...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/dec/07/italy.theob...

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/banker-sex-scandals-2011-...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/12/roberto-calvi-bla...

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-doral-bank-murder/

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gangster...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-13/inside-look-two-mo...

https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/shocking-video-fuels-claim...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/billionaire-who-blew-whis...

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/22/630866527/mastermind-behind-m...

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#105

Post by kik0729 »

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #81
da02 wrote: post #65

Why was he unusual? (I didn't read the article.)

I read the entire article and I still don't know why they called him an "unusual billionaire".

Probably because he didn't seem to live a very lavish lifestyle, had some dealings with some shady people and was labeled as erratic by some while being a popular and loved figure in Toronto.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#106

Post by erikb »

hodgesrm wrote: post #68
jungler wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I had observed all of it, I would be implicated, wouldn't I? Most of the material comes second-hand. It's not hard to open up a biography of a powerful figure and dissect it.

It seems more likely that at certain times elites have found they have more in common with each other than the lower classes even across religious or ethnic boundaries. This was certainly true for at least part of the Middle Ages. As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan

Yes, but it's wrong. Kings kill(-ed) kings all the time. For instance check out what the Saudis are doing these months.

That makes it a big question, why it's not happening more often then they can reproduce. And it's not like they are writing on their own wikipedia page "hey, I, prince Saudi XYZ don't kill Saddam Hussein's nephew because ". So of course it's some guessing involved.

And I have yet to see a more convincing one than that they have dirt on each other. It makes a lot of sense. And while you might think that getting killed is worse than getting bad press or going to jail, for them it means losing power, and that's all they have.

So let's not get too romantic here and try to discuss the facts. If you have a really good reason they don't kill each other more often, then let's hear it. But morals or an "understanding" can't be it.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#107

Post by bitexploder »

topmonk wrote: post #73
bitexploder wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A billionaire has as much to lose as almost anyone else. You don’t perceive wealth as “more to lose”.

A guy working for McDonalds and living in a small run down apartment in a bad neighborhood definitely has less to lose by going to prison then a billionaire.

I think this takes a narrow materialistic view of things. People don’t suddenly get any happier when they have billions of dollars. At the very bottom, sure, there is something there. But the average HN reader and poster has as much to lose as any billionaire or millionaire in the abstract. Freedom is an extremely undervalued asset.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#108

Post by bitexploder »

jjeaff wrote: post #75
bitexploder wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A billionaire has as much to lose as almost anyone else. You don’t perceive wealth as “more to lose”.

Yes, they do. Poverty creates desperation. They also have less to gain. Most any billionaire likely understands that earning a few more billion will not change their life that much.

I can’t disagree about people living at or below poverty line, even from the materialistic view. The average HN reader, though? Philosophically, I believe what I wrote is generally true. Having a bunch of money isn’t going to change how happy someone is. You aren’t any freer. You are still bound by the human condition like everyone else.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#109

Post by hodgesrm »

cafard wrote: post #101
hodgesrm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems more likely that at certain times elites have found they have more in common with each other than the lower classes even across religious or ethnic boundaries. This was certainly true for at least part of the Middle Ages. As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan

Some rather limited parts of the Middle Ages, perhaps. The Burgundians and Valois were pretty hard on each other.

It depends on the location and time. In the great English victories of the Hundred Years War many ordinary soldiers were killed whereas the French nobility were often spared. It did not hurt that the latter could pay fat ransoms, of course.

Re: The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

#110

Post by hodgesrm »

erikb wrote: post #106
hodgesrm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems more likely that at certain times elites have found they have more in common with each other than the lower classes even across religious or ethnic boundaries. This was certainly true for at least part of the Middle Ages. As Saladin famously said to Guy of Lusignan, "kings do not kill kings." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Lusignan

Yes, but it's wrong. Kings kill(-ed) kings all the time. For instance check out what the Saudis are doing these months. That makes it a big question, why it's not happening more often then they can reproduce. And it's not like they are writing on their own wikipedia page "hey, I, prince Saudi XYZ don't kill Saddam Hussein's nephew because ". So of course it's some guessing involved. And I have yet to see a more convi…

It really depends on the era and the type of nobility. Most of the European royal families were related in the 18th and 19th centuries--I can't think of too many instances of them killing each other with the gusto of, say, the leaders of the French Revolution. Exceptions like the killing of the Duke of Enghien blackened the reputations of the perpetrators, in this case Napoleon and Talleyrand.

The more interesting counter-examples are cases like the succession struggles in the Ottoman Empire, which after a couple of generations ran on the Highlander principle. The last brother standing became the Sultan.

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