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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#101

Post by smhost »

rayiner wrote: post #90
smhost wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

parents typically don't sell the products of their children's labor, and even if they do, there aren't systemic incentives to exploit their children, and if there are, maybe we should stop that from being a thing. and parents usually give a shit about their own kids

> parents typically don't sell the products of their children's labor, and even if they do, there aren't systemic incentives to exploit their children What do you think kids on farms do ?

Kids on farms are not systemic in the sense that it's not a blackbox that can be scaled. You can't bribe the police chief to give you more children, for example.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#103

Post by emodendroket »

rayiner wrote: post #61
noobermin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but a naive reading of that could justify community service may be. These prisoners were not convicted and sentenced to be firemen.

They're not being compelled to be firemen.

Well, under a very narrow definition of "compelled," maybe not.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#104

Post by emodendroket »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

Is it really for the good of the society to have a class of people who does work for pennies on the dollar? It'd seem to me that that would have a negative effect on the labor market too.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#105

Post by [deleted] »

uxp100 wrote: post #66
rosser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn? Furthermore, when a farmer's child does chores alongside a paid laborer, what's going on?

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#106

Post by eli_gottlieb »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

>Note that we do this with another class of people who are wards of someone else: children. Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...

Eh, I could argue that, particularly if you're adopting child after child just to use them as free labor, like society does when "adopting" prisoners.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#107

Post by fipple »

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#108

Post by ahelwer »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

  But thanks to Reaganomics, prisons turned to profits
  Cause free labor is the cornerstone of US economics
  Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison
  You think I am bullshitting, then read the 13th Amendment
  Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits
  That's why they giving drug offenders time in double digits
Killer Mike, Reagan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lIqNjC1RKU

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#109

Post by mywittyname »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep?

My humble opinion is that this creates a perverse incentive which undermines the pursuit of justice. If we as a society feel that imprisoning people is an sound, effective form of justice, then we as a society should accept the full costs associated with imprisonment. If we are unwilling to pay for such, then we should sit back and think of a more cost-appropriate solution.

The use of prison slave labor encourages more crime (via ambigiuously written laws), harsher sentencing(mandatory minimum sentencing), and recidivism because it is profitable for those in the justice system.

I can see why people would agree with your sentiment; I certainly use to. But now I think it is naive, short-sighted, and doesn't align well with what I feel is the purpose of prison (reformation).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#110

Post by kartan »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> --why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep?

If keeping people in prison is an economic gain for society, you are going to send people to prison whatever they deserve it or not. And that is the case in the USA.

"He was found guilty in February of racketeering for taking a $1 million kickback from the builder of for-profit prisons for juveniles. Ciavarella who left the bench over two years ago after he and another judge, Michael Conahan, were accused of sentencing youngsters to prisons they had a hand in building." https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2011/08/12/pennsylv...

So over-incarceration cannot be set apart from economical profit for jailing citizens.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...

Children labour is forbidden. And when they actually work, e.g. movie actors, they get paid.

Make society pay for sending people to prison and they are going to be more eager to rehabilitate than to punish. It is not the only factor, but it helps.

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