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Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

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Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#101

Post by pmoriarty »

V-2 wrote: post #71
toomanybeersies wrote: post #69

I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird. I'm all for taking recreational drugs to have fun and I'm all for "recreational drugs" used in a clinical se…

This reminds me of the famous Leary vs. Lettvin debate (1967): https://youtu.be/Gq3Fp-xp0l0 For the brochure version: http://www.swt.org/oshare/Lettvin-Leary/Lettvin-Leary-LSD-De... Leary's sitting in the lotus position was always a red flag to me ;) I don't advocate a prohibition at all, but I think there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use. Lettvin's point…

"there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use"

Could it be that there's something wrong with not having one?

Most traditional societies with long histories of psychedelic use have some sort of ideology or framework in which to fit and to interpret the psychedelic experience. This is used to guide and structure the experience, and it could be argued that it's precisely when such a framework is lacking that all sorts of problems start to occur for many users of these substances -- they are thrown back on their own devices for interpretation of the experience, and many of them are incapable of doing so constructively.

Our own society is really just in its infancy in trying to integrate psychedelic use in a constructive, helpful manner. Psychedelic use in a sacred context is one approch that some people are trying, psychedelic use in a medical or therapeutic context is another. The jury is still out on which of those is better. Maybe none of them is. Perhaps in the future we'll find an even better one.

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#102

Post by pmoriarty »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #100
pmoriarty wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no neurologist, but what you're describing sounds more like Prisoner's cinema[1] or some sort of entoptic phenomenon[2] rather than HPPD. HPPD happens with the eyes open, in the light, and is usually more pronounced than something like a floater[3] (which can also be seen in the lights, with the eyes open). [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_cinema [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entoptic_pheno…

I don't know about the other poster, but while I do experience all of those, I also have visual noise, color flashing and movement, even with my eyes open in bright conditions. The best description is that I basically don't see flat even colors anywhere. There is always some amount of colorful noise. It's not that bad, and I can mostly tune it out. But it is always there. I know phosphenes are normal, visual stuff th…

Visual snow[1] and scintillating scotoma[2] are associated with migraines and can be seen with the eyes open in the light. But, again, I am not a neurologist, so I would really recommend you see one to have this properly diagnosed by someone actually qualified to do so.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_snow

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#103

Post by NikolaeVarius »

Matticus_Rex wrote: post #74
lotsofpulp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t excuse my parents behavior just because it came from “love”. They didn’t know any better, but they also refused my attempts to educate them multiple times. To me, that says their ego and need to assume things about their “afterlife” was more important than pursuing valid data and analysis, not a good trait in my opinion.

So who had a better experience? You or the guy who learned about acceptance and transcendence?

Can't really compare them. How do you compare which experience is better given they are both personal?

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#104

Post by pmoriarty »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #61
headsoup wrote: post #23

Drugs should not be criminalised. They should be regulated. There's no fundamental reason that drugs are any worse than alcohol except social stigma and manipulation. A most bizarre example imo is Portugal. It is a fine-able offense to carry drugs (up to 10 days), but not criminal. Yet it is criminal to produce or distribute drugs. How does that work if consumption of the end product is not criminal. It's like it mus…

It's not really bizarre at all. Portugal have made the decision that although drugs are bad (in their opinion), the users of drugs are not bad people, but rather the victims of bad people (the dealers).

"the users of drugs are not bad people, but rather the victims of bad people (the dealers)"

Why need a user of drug be a victim of anyone?

There's a difference between drug use (which can be constructive, or at least not harmful) and drug abuse. We should not equate the two.

Drugs (especially psychedelics, but also cannabis) could be hugely beneficial to people when used constructively. When people benefit from such constructive drug use, they should be thanking those who provide them those drugs, and not putting those people in jail or demonizing them as "bad people".

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#105

Post by pmoriarty »

RangerScience wrote: post #95
dghughes wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that just as bad? People who only believe what the Bible says is right versus people taking a drug and accepting its effects as the real truth. Both sides should know themselves without external devices forcing a certain "truth" on them.

You are wildly uninformed about these experiences. There's no "truth" that they show you. You just... have an experience. And then you think about it. And then maybe it changes you, maybe it doesn't. Just like any other day, only turned up to 11, dose-dependent.

Why are you so convinced that they don't show you any truth?

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#106

Post by Matticus_Rex »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #103
Matticus_Rex wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who had a better experience? You or the guy who learned about acceptance and transcendence?

Can't really compare them. How do you compare which experience is better given they are both personal?

Would you rather have peace about something or not? Seems pretty clear to me (which is why I'm a proponent of Stoic practice and CBT).

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#107

Post by toomanybeersies »

pmoriarty wrote: post #96
toomanybeersies wrote: post #69

I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird. I'm all for taking recreational drugs to have fun and I'm all for "recreational drugs" used in a clinical se…

"I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird." Honestly, people are different and they react differently to drugs. I knew someone who did a lot of LSD, b…

That's what I mean though. I'm not saying that nobody gets spiritual experiences, but rather that it's just a function of our brain.

You aren't connecting to some higher power, you're connecting to your brain in a different state. Like having the radio tuned between two different channels.

It can still be mind expanding, one thing I've definitely discovered from psychedelics is that our senses are subjective. But I think that people who are trying to find a higher meaning in life should look elsewhere, rather than drugs. Because you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion.

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#108

Post by toomanybeersies »

pmoriarty wrote: post #104
toomanybeersies wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really bizarre at all. Portugal have made the decision that although drugs are bad (in their opinion), the users of drugs are not bad people, but rather the victims of bad people (the dealers).

"the users of drugs are not bad people, but rather the victims of bad people (the dealers)" Why need a user of drug be a victim of anyone? There's a difference between drug use (which can be constructive, or at least not harmful) and drug abuse. We should not equate the two. Drugs (especially psychedelics, but also cannabis) could be hugely beneficial to people when used constructively. When people benefit from such…

> Drugs could be hugely beneficial to people when used constructively

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that the viewpoint of the Portuguese government is that any use of drugs (outside the legal ones) is abuse, and that the abusers are the victims.

They're saying that it is still inherently bad for people to be taking drugs, but that drug users are not bad people.

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#109

Post by Veelox »

throwaway98371 wrote: post #63
jdietrich wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a rather worrying trend of psychedelics being "sold" as a safe panacea. If you believe the cheerleaders, psychedelics are powerful enough to rapidly cure mental illness and facilitate profoundly positive personality changes, but have only trivial side-effects. That doesn't seem particularly plausible to me - there aren't many medicines that are both very potent and very safe. The stereotype of the burned-out…

I grew up in a really conservative, deeply religious (Protestant Christian) family. My parents loved me and did their best to raise me according to their beliefs, but their beliefs were both absurdly strict and also ridiculously unsupportable by the scientific evidence that, as a book- and science-obsessed teenager, I was absorbing at a rapid pace. Given that I was quickly disbelieving everything I had been raised to…

Personally, I think 16 is way to young to be experimenting with drug. The effects are to powerful to give to an under-developed brain.

Re: Why We Should Say Yes to Drugs

#110

Post by pmoriarty »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #107
pmoriarty wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird." Honestly, people are different and they react differently to drugs. I knew someone who did a lot of LSD, b…

That's what I mean though. I'm not saying that nobody gets spiritual experiences, but rather that it's just a function of our brain. You aren't connecting to some higher power, you're connecting to your brain in a different state. Like having the radio tuned between two different channels. It can still be mind expanding, one thing I've definitely discovered from psychedelics is that our senses are subjective. But I t…

"you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion"

So how do you distinguish the illusion from the real thing, as far as higher meaning goes?

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