The great video game exodus • Hacker News Board

Re: The great video game exodus

#101

Post by wpietri » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:32 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #33

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

Is it run like the movie industry? AFAIK in the movie industry few publishers and or studios actually have any production staff on hand. Instead what happens is a core team write and pitch a movie idea. Only after they've gotten funding and done preproduction then they hire contractors short term (1-3 months) to make the movie. In games most studios hire all the staff. They then have the issue that between projects 9…

> He seemed to forget he was being paid $80k a year for his game ideas regardless of if they got used or not.

Money is one reason people do things, but rarely the only one. Especially smart, creative people. The notion that people lose the right to complain as long as the paychecks keep coming is poisonous.

Re: The great video game exodus

#102

Post by snoman » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:33 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #97

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

Are you seriously suggesting government funding for video game development? There's no way I'd be willing to have my tax dollars wasted on that.

Is VFX any different? You'd be amazed that a majority of it is government/state funded. Good podcast on it here: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/no-hollywood-ending-visual-e...

Re: The great video game exodus

#103

Post by snoman » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

oppositelock wrote: post #3

Sadly, most of the video game industry is a crappy place to work. I speak from experience here, having been the lead game engine developer in a studio owned by one of the largest publishers. I don't want to out them, so I'm being vague on purpose. There is little work life balance. No matter what happens, no matter how many people you destroy, you will do whatever it takes to ship in time for the Christmas season. If…

I got into programming as a boy in the 80s because I wanted to edit snake, went to college for programming and every project I begged teachers to let me warp the requirements into something video game related.

But by the time graduation was coming, even 20+ years ago, it was obvious that the video game industry was a terrible place to work. Low pay, bad hours, no security, bad publisher arrangements.

So, for a long time I never understood why so many engineers go through that. In my arrogance I would think "... surely _engineers_ immediately see the abuse and turn away." I guess that calling is just stronger for some than it was for me.

Re: The great video game exodus

#104

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

quxbar wrote: post #72

brownbat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most b…

It's funny that you're worried about criminality on the side of workers, not the owners: "Eventually, however, it was corruption that led Scrivano to leave the industry, after one of his studio’s investors stole the majority of the company’s funds and disappeared without trace." Clearly, the person who made off with the money would not benefit from a union.

> Clearly, the person who made off with the money would not benefit from a union.

How would a union have stopped corporate insider theft?

Re: The great video game exodus

#105

Post by indigochill » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #44

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

> I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. The cornerstone of the case against unions isn't that we should stop respecting people, it's that unions are often no longer the best way to accomplish that goal. Not to detract from early labor movements, the fights for basic workplace safety and overtime in the twentie…

Working in Iceland gave me a weird close-up perspective of unions in a somewhat different context. Icelanders and other Europeans are free to choose whether or not to be in a union (at least in my industry, which is very broadly labelled "office workers"). However, non-European foreigners are required to get the "opinion" of a union on the work visa form, and of course the union won't provide an opinion unless you're a member, thus you're forced to join (and stay on good terms with, if you want your work visa re-application approved) a union.

Despite this blatant extortion, I really have nothing else against the union. Their cut is quite small and they provide services and subsidies you can get your money back through (not that I've ever taken advantage of because everything's in Icelandic, but still...)

But on the other hand, I was almost forced to stop working and subsist on the peanuts the union pays because of a strike that had nothing at all to do with my own working conditions or even those of my co-workers or even people in the same industry (one of the side effects of unionizing in such a small population is the union sphere of influence is quite broad).

So from my experience, I think you've hit it on the nose.

Re: The great video game exodus

#106

Post by justinhj » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

oppositelock wrote: post #30

justinhj wrote: post #13

My first job was bagging groceries in Safeway, and I remember vividly watching the minute hand on a big clock slowly tick around to the end of my shift. I was thinking, when I graduate university I don't want a job where I am always so bored I'm just wishing my life away so I can go home. I can honestly say after 25 years working on video games I have never once been bored. There is a vibrant industry out there which…

A long career is certainly possible, however, you will earn far less over that career, and see more stress than doing something less exciting. I still miss working on games, playing my own creation with music, graphics, game logic all coming together is the most rewarding thing I've done. Meanwhile, writing code which is judged by output in a console is much more boring, but much more rewarding in other ways. It cert…

Oh, I certainly agree that if ones goal is to avoid boredom and maximize money then games may not be the way to go. However, there is certainly a decent living to be made. My main point however is that if you want to make games, it certainly is possible to do so if you are patient and focused and avoid those who would have you crunch incessantly.

Re: The great video game exodus

#107

Post by pandaman » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:41 PM UTC

dpwm wrote: post #76

pandaman wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Hollywood was originally mentioned, I did not think it needs clarifying that I am talking about professional careers. Of course somebody could be an amazing actor playing Santa at the mall from the point of view of children sitting on his lap. > If we define developers by money they are expected to make for the studio, I'd imagine EA and King employees must be pretty high up. It depends on employees, both EA and K…

> As Hollywood was originally mentioned, I did not think it needs clarifying that I am talking about professional careers. The majority of Hollywood actors are good at being Hollywood actors. Much of that seems to be more about maintaining an off-screen presence. For some reason many are celebrated. My point is that they may have fantastic careers and be household names, but that does not seem to correlate to acting…

>The majority of Hollywood actors are good at being Hollywood actors.

Sure. And people who come to LA want to become one too. I am sorry if I've made you think I am talking about European actors when I replied to a comment mentioning Hollywood, Los Angeles and people coming there.

>The phenomenon you describe to me would in fact suggest that it is less down to individuals than the studio attracting the right people or at least not rejecting them.

Studios are not intelligent entities, they don't hire people by themselves. Hiring people is a job for individuals and one can suck at it just like at any other job. If you look at the events where a studio had been disbanded/went bankrupt but the significant number of staff banded together and formed a new one or it had been saved by an investor, you will notice that the new studio with the same people performs the same or worse than the original. It's up to you to decide if it's because of skills, passion or anything else. I just pointed out the phenomenon of being unable to make living from selling games one's made and its prevalence.

Re: The great video game exodus

#108

Post by s73v3r_ » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #44

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

> I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. The cornerstone of the case against unions isn't that we should stop respecting people, it's that unions are often no longer the best way to accomplish that goal. Not to detract from early labor movements, the fights for basic workplace safety and overtime in the twentie…

"The cornerstone of the case against unions isn't that we should stop respecting people, it's that unions are often no longer the best way to accomplish that goal."

But those making that argument never bring up a workable alternative for accomplishing that goal, other than everyone should quit their jobs.

"I'm glad we had unions, but they also have a dark side, where they can function more like a corrupt cartel over time."

I cannot take this argument seriously when the management side of things is acting in the exact same manner, and no one seems to bat an eye.

Re: The great video game exodus

#109

Post by s73v3r_ » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #58

kraig911 wrote: post #22

I think the video game industry is literally run like the movie industry except there is no union to help the people who make the actual magic happen unlike say the entertainment industry. I realize that some hate unions but some things on this world literally could not happen unless we respect people, their time, and their families. Some things are worth more than money and I"m grateful for the games I get to play.…

I work in the game development all my life, and I will fight against unionizing with all that I have. Unions, above all, help those on the lower part of the bell curve. They commoditize labor, introduce standard metrics, push towards mediocrity and destroy competition between individual contributors. I am now on a third week of crunch, without weekends, all to make it to the Steam sale; something that a union would f…

" I am now on a third week of crunch, without weekends, all to make it to the Steam sale; something that a union would fight against."

No, a union would just make sure you're actually paid for it, instead of being coerced into giving away your life for absolutely nothing.

"I can also negotiate quite well on my own behalf with employees. If I was in a union, I would, through involvement in collective negotiation, effectively share my strong negotiation position with other developers in the industry, bringing them forward and print me back. Why the hell would I do that?"

So "fuck you, I've got mine".

Re: The great video game exodus

#110

Post by s73v3r_ » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #41

Building games and being over worked can’t possibly be worse than a soul sucking 40 hours as an equally underpaid enterprise dev. I’d rather be over worked but making something interesting rather than sitting in meetings all day barely writing any code and going home with no mental energy left and nothing to show for it.

"Building games and being over worked can’t possibly be worse than a soul sucking 40 hours as an equally underpaid enterprise dev."

Yes, it is. Mainly because, as an enterprise dev, you get to go home at the end of the day and see your family. You get to go home and work on something you care about. You get to go home and have hobbies and do other fun things in your off time.