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GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

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Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#101

Post by Karunamon »

lovelearning wrote: post #73
gilrain wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "entitlement" is from people who are frustrated that the open source software movement lacks such a fundamental piece of the desktop software puzzle. The confrontation comes from the fact that one side insists the software is there (GIMP), whereas the other side view them as disconnected from reality since its use in industry rounds to 0%.

I don't see why perceived usage share in industry should motivate dissing open source devs. GIMP has a user base and fans who obviously think it's good enough for their needs. If the professionals in the industry and their employers have a need for an all-in-one free software that can do everything - image editing, illustrations, maybe throw in 3D and animations while we are at it - then the industry should contribut…

What can be and what is are two different things. GIMP is not a serious competitor to Photoshop, full stop. So long as there is no serious competitor to Photoshop, that's a huge swath of the professional world (and much of the non-professional) that won't ever give Linux the time of day. There's a reason that Photoshop is teetering dangerously close to being a genercised trademark!

And I think the attitude comes in when GIMP is ignorantly held up as if it were a serious competitor. It isn't. It's something else entirely. It might be good enough for people to make memes for internet shitposting, but between the missing features and the alien UI (to the point where a massive reskin [1] was around for a while), it's never going to be used in industry.

If the GIMP devs want to continue down this path, more power to 'em, I just want the people claiming that it's a Photoshop competitor to educate themselves :)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMPshop

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#102

Post by lovelearning »

Karunamon wrote: post #101
lovelearning wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why perceived usage share in industry should motivate dissing open source devs. GIMP has a user base and fans who obviously think it's good enough for their needs. If the professionals in the industry and their employers have a need for an all-in-one free software that can do everything - image editing, illustrations, maybe throw in 3D and animations while we are at it - then the industry should contribut…

What can be and what is are two different things. GIMP is not a serious competitor to Photoshop, full stop. So long as there is no serious competitor to Photoshop, that's a huge swath of the professional world (and much of the non-professional) that won't ever give Linux the time of day. There's a reason that Photoshop is teetering dangerously close to being a genercised trademark! And I think the attitude comes in w…

This thread seems to be full of people making baseless assumptions about GIMP that I don't see the GIMP devs themselves make or any open source enthusiast make.

Who here is claiming GIMP is a serious competitor to Photoshop, or even a competitor at all? Even the GIMP team doesn't (https://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-dev...).

Or that GIMP is targeting graphics professionals or graphics industry? Don't think so... "We do, however, acknowledge the fact that people will treat GIMP as Photoshop replacement no matter what we tell them, and that’s all right with us. You own this software, it’s up to you to decide how you make use of it."

It is what it is. A tool. That happens to be free and is good enough for some. As somebody above said, it's like complaining why emacs / kate / geany or whatever editor can't do something that visual studio can. If the industry wants a serious competitor to Photoshop, time for them to start building it anew or taking existing free tools nearer to that goal or funding open source devs to do it for them. Complaining and ranting against open source devs who have zero obligations to the industry is not going to achieve anything.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#103

Post by yoz-y »

bhaavan wrote: post #3

So still no GTK3? I think when GTK4 is released in a few months, it would be a good time to move to GTK3 as they can still be outdated. I know I am being a bit bitter for an open source project with less funding, but GIMP was supposed to be a poster boy GTK application in the first place.

Note that it is quite fine not to jump on to GTK4, because it will not be stable for at least a year. https://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2016/06/13/gtk-4-0-is-not-gtk-...

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#104

Post by s73v3r_ »

lovelearning wrote: post #59
gilrain wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you complain that Krita lacks photo manipulation features, you're told "Of course, because Krita is only targeted at illustrators!" The open source evangelists always have a dodge.

What's with the entitlement here? These are people sacrificing their time and going largely unpaid (AFAIK) for their efforts. I for one am happy and grateful that these "dodgy" open source evangelists exist and offer us all a choice for free. If I have a subjective usability problem with their software, far more constructive to take the effort to try and fix it myself than complain like a diva.

What's with the entitlement in thinking that something being open source means its above criticism?

Further, people have tried to get usability fixes into GIMP, and been shot down, as "that's not what the project wants to do."

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#105

Post by s73v3r_ »

lovelearning wrote: post #102
Karunamon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can be and what is are two different things. GIMP is not a serious competitor to Photoshop, full stop. So long as there is no serious competitor to Photoshop, that's a huge swath of the professional world (and much of the non-professional) that won't ever give Linux the time of day. There's a reason that Photoshop is teetering dangerously close to being a genercised trademark! And I think the attitude comes in w…

This thread seems to be full of people making baseless assumptions about GIMP that I don't see the GIMP devs themselves make or any open source enthusiast make. Who here is claiming GIMP is a serious competitor to Photoshop, or even a competitor at all? Even the GIMP team doesn't ( https://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-dev... ). Or that GIMP is targeting graphics professionals or graphics industry?…

To pretend that any of the things said about GIMP in this thread are "baseless" are to stick your head in the sand.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#106

Post by s73v3r_ »

bkor wrote: post #95
besasam wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it. I would love an alternative to Photoshop or Affinity that actually offers the same features and has a nice UI (let's be real, it's something most free applications really lack... and the look and feel of the software I'm using has high priority for me) but those who actually want these things aren't the ones developing, and the ones developing apparently don't place a lot of importa…

> It's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it. I like free software. It doesn't have to be free as in price. Various small free software developers are supported by its users, e.g. Liberapay / Patreon / Tipeee. Various things were contributed by ZeMarmot. This project is supported by its users using above methods. > We really need more interdisciplinary developers and free software enthusiasts. It seems just having people cont…

Isn't that just the subscription model that everyone here decries? That's what JetBrains went to, and people here were calling for their heads.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#107

Post by s73v3r_ »

epidemian wrote: post #20
nkkollaw wrote: post #6

Downvote all you want--I know open source can't handle criticism, but as much as I want to love GIMP, it's completely unusable. First, it's still in GTK2 so on my monitor it looks zoomed out at 50%. Then, the UI is the least intuitive thing I've ever seen. To resize and move a layer takes 4 times the steps compared to Pinta (or of course Photoshop). Shortcuts are the weirdest thing, completely different compared to a…

Maybe i'm an outlier, but with zero prior experience in image editing software, i've found GIMP UI much more approachable than Photoshop. With PS i felt that the UI was much more tailored to experts or at least to people that knew what they were doing, whereas with GIMP i found the UI to be more beginner-friendly and discoverable. So yeah, YMMV. What a shocker! :) > Downvote all you want--I know open source can't han…

"Do you genuinely think that the GIMP developers don't want or don't try to make it usable or to improve it as much as they can?"

Their actions and statements really lead us to conclude as much, yes.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#108

Post by nkkollaw »

detaro wrote: post #86
nkkollaw wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With that logic, you can argue against any debugging facility in software. Log files? Only developers think those are cool, useless! Log files aren't user-facing. A performance meter in an image editing program is completely useless to 99% of its users.

So performance tools are fine, as long as they are hard to find (=not user-facing)? And the percentage of users that would want them has to live with worse access to them to not scare the others with an extra menu entry?

Yes.

The more commonly used features are, the more prominent they should be in the UI.

If not, the "Compose" or "Send" button in email clients should be as big as "view connection details" (to give you an example).

That's how you reduce clutter. GIMP does that horribly, so they should probably _remove_ something, not add.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#109

Post by nkkollaw »

ATsch wrote: post #39
nkkollaw wrote: post #6

Downvote all you want--I know open source can't handle criticism, but as much as I want to love GIMP, it's completely unusable. First, it's still in GTK2 so on my monitor it looks zoomed out at 50%. Then, the UI is the least intuitive thing I've ever seen. To resize and move a layer takes 4 times the steps compared to Pinta (or of course Photoshop). Shortcuts are the weirdest thing, completely different compared to a…

Note: you are likely being downvoted not for what you said, but for saying you will get downvoted. It's a frequent enough thing that it gets mentioned in the HN guidelines, last I checked.

Ah, cool--I didn't know that.

In this case however I think it's more open source fanboys no-matter-what downvoting, because I dared criticize an open source project made by poor volunteers that work on it on their free time, and if you say they are not getting something you're entitled and you should go fork it and do it yourself.

That's my impression, anyway.

Re: GIMP 2.10.0 Release Candidate 1 Released

#110

Post by nkkollaw »

Rovanion wrote: post #17
nkkollaw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to develop the effects, not move buttons around. As for the "go fix it", that's exactly the reaction I was expecting. Open source projects can't handle criticism because it's volonteers working on it, so "go fix it if you don't like it". Not very productive, uh? Personally, I use Pinta or Photoshop via Wine. Pinta is very good though.

I'm sorry? There's a difference between constructive criticism and > I really do want to love GIMP, but it's completely unusable. And you speak of being productive...

That's just my opinion of GIMP.

I can sugarcoat it, but we're all grown ups here I thought..? I didn't offend anyone.

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