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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#101

Post by coldtea »

phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

>It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world.

This is perhaps because of several things:

1) That's the way "the rest of the world's" governments and corporate interests want their own countries to go, and have been pushing towards since decades. The rest of the world's leaders (most of them) could not care less for the lip service they pay to "freedom" et al.

2) A superpower gets to do whatever it likes "without much stir from the rest of the world". Heck, France and Britain had 1/3rd of the world, outside or their national borders, enslaved "without much stir from the rest of the world" until well after WWII. And suddenly the "rest of the world" will care for what China does to its own citizens?

3) It's nobody's business really what China does to its own citizens. There are other countries with the worlds largest prison population and most police shootings (by crazy amounts, like having 25% of the worlds prisoners for 4% of the worlds population), and they continue in that path "without much stir among the rest of the world". Why would it be different here?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#102

Post by ilamont »

narrator wrote: post #83
ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

Even if someone is a lover of the communist party, isn't it somewhat of a bad idea to have a cult of personality style leader? Wasn't that what the party wanted to put an end to after Mao?

They may have said it, but the CCP nevertheless used propaganda, Han-centric nationalism, and control of the news media to elevate certain leaders into cult status. Xi and Deng are obvious examples, but I also recall the Jiang apparatus trying to play that card as well.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#103

Post by zentiggr »

balthasar wrote: post #77
ilamont wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When strongman-based cults of personality (real or wannabe) appoint themselves ruler for life, policy can go off the rails. Wars, purges, persecution of minority groups, and civil unrest are more likely. Corrupt systems of checks and balances, which may have already been weak, slide ever further. Mao, Stalin, Chavez, Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek ... a few of these strongmen presided over brief periods o…

Typo there with Chavez? Democratically elected and rose the quality of life of Venezuela.

Typo there with _rose_ quality of life in Venezuela?

Pretty sure we've watched that 'democratic' experiment fail spectacularly, at least what news I know of the economy and living conditions in general seem very poor at best. Failed state comes to mind.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#104

Post by vatueil »

briga wrote: post #38
IntronExon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name six of those “great rulers” and as a bonus, make those sure those six allowed for a peaceful transfer of power when they were done. No fair if you pick rulers who were “great” and the whole place suffered terribly upon their death or removal from power.

Off the top of my head: Solon, Trajan, Hadrian, Marcus Aurelius, Akbar, Charlemange There are many more examples, those are just some that come to mind right away. You can argue whether or not they were "good", but they certainly did good things for their empires.

Marcus Aurelius was followed by Commodus, and Charlemagne's grandsons broke the Carolingian Empire in civil war. As IntronExon pointed out, a major problem with benevolent dictators for life is that their successors may not be as benevolent. Furthermore, most dictators throughout history were not nearly as competent as the half-dozen handpicked examples.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#105

Post by gaius »

jjaredsimpson wrote: post #69
aaron-lebo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scares me more is the cheerleading and defense of this in the West, and the way this is voluntarily happening here. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J24C0TI This is a telescreen.

Anonymity paired with speech is a new modern invention which didn't always exist. I don't this it is necessarily true that that kinds of speech is always for the ultimate good. I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior. It just seems like the modern version of sitting around a fire face to face and not being an asshole.

I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior.

A listening device in private homes is a genie that won't go back in its bottle. Are you willing to stand up and say, I trust every official, elected or otherwise, for the rest of my life, and the lives of any descendants I might have? Because you have just written a blank cheque that says exactly that.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#106

Post by ender89 »

ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive towards Japan in any way, the full force of the United States armed forces will stand with them. As one of China's main trading partners, China doesn't want to pick a fight with the united states any more than we want to pick a fight with China. Similarly, South Korea has little to fear from China (even if they're propping up North Korea to do it), since the US has a similar relationship there. Nepal and Taiwan are screwed. India... its hard to imagine things going worse for India to be honest. Lets focus on getting most of their people clean, proper toilets before we start worrying about the influence of communist dictatorships, eh?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#107

Post by ericd »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #73
ilamont wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When strongman-based cults of personality (real or wannabe) appoint themselves ruler for life, policy can go off the rails. Wars, purges, persecution of minority groups, and civil unrest are more likely. Corrupt systems of checks and balances, which may have already been weak, slide ever further. Mao, Stalin, Chavez, Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek ... a few of these strongmen presided over brief periods o…

And then there's Singapore. Ruled by an authoritarian, gum hating despot who provides nice civic infrastructure for the populace.

When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. The problem is that that great king's successor is probably not also great, and under a bad ruler, it's among the worst forms of government, and that bad king can last for your entire lifetime.

It's never spectacularly efficient, but the US' form of democracy is meant to be much lower variance. I think it's a good tradeoff.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#108

Post by notyourwork »

phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

What should the rest of the world do?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#109

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ender89 wrote: post #106
ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive tow…

> The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan

China has long-range nukes. Behind every treat is political resolve. Would America risk lighting its cities on fire to defend a country across the ocean? (I hope so. But I'm not sure.)

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#110

Post by wpasc »

coldtea wrote: post #101
phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

> It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. This is perhaps because of several things: 1) That's the way "the rest of the world's" governments and corporate interests want their own countries to go, and have been pushing towards since decades. The rest of the world's leaders (most of them) could not care less for the lip service they p…

I think you have raised false equivalencies here
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