LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#101

Post by melling » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #90

At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but there has to be real moment of respect for the fact that Americans are living in a "dial-a-death" state of existence. This is something that many, many social commentators have warned us of, over the decades: the signs of a Police State. S…

In what kind of society does someone call 911, pretending to be homocidal, telling them they are pointing a gun at their wife and child, that they poured gasoline throughout the house, and are going to burn it down?

The fact is there are people that really do this and someone needs to respond.

The other fact is that other people think it’s funny, or a good way to get revenge on someone, by calling in a police force to invade their home.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#102

Post by wl » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #95

I always grew up thinking that police had to wait until somebody shot at them to shoot back. It seems like "we thought he had a gun and he motioned towards his waist" has now replaced "he shot at us". I really wish that the police had to adhere to the same laws as anybody else does. They are civilians after all. If had a gun (I don't) and pointed it at somebody to intimidate them, even if they were trying to break in…

When it comes to the use of deadly force, the same laws apply to police as everyone else. There has to be a reasonable belief that there is an imminent threat of death or gross bodily injury. If someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't have to let them shoot you first before you can defend yourself.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#103

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:12 PM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #68

CydeWeys wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true at all. If the person firing the round can survive the momentum imparted into their shoulder from the rifle, then the person on the receiving end can survive it if they're wearing armor that spreads out the imparted momentum similarly. Basic Newton's Third Law. Also, there are .50 BMG handguns (and no, I'm not mistakenly referring to .50 AE, I mean .50 BMG). They are stupidly impractical, but they exist. You…

Oh, I just figured 50cal would leave sufficient overkill factor to cover all situations - after all, I think it would be unfair to require police officers to show lots more restraint using their firearms if they didn't have armour capable of saving them should the situation escalate; after all - if I was given PPE at work which would be sufficient to get me out of 70% of incidents alive, my first (and last!) question…

If this incident began with a planned approach by the police, on the assumption that they might be facing someone violent and armed, one of the first questions should surely be why any officers outside the building were so exposed that they were concerned about being suddenly shot by the suspect. Do these officers not arrive equipped with body armour, shields, armoured vehicles and the like in a situation like this?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#104

Post by revelation » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #60

burntwater wrote: post #14

I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two children. And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position wher…

> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as wel…

No, this makes no sense at all. This is a skit from Dwight of The Office.

The guy is standing fully exposed in the open, blinded by light while a bunch of cops have taken cover behind their cars and are aiming their guns at him. What kind of gun is he going to pull out, aim and shoot and have any chance of hitting anything but a tree.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#105

Post by masklinn » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #37

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

Just a side note, because you’re from Norway, that may be surprising to some. The US is #1 with 1.01 guns per capita, and Norway is #9 with .31 guns per capita. In any case, i don’t think the number of guns per capita explains the difference in gun crime rates between the two. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per...

> Just a side note, because you’re from Norway, that may be surprising to some. The US is #1 with 1.01 guns per capita, and Norway is #9 with .31 guns per capita.

Being from #10 on that list, the type, quality and "outings" of guns matters a lot. In France, "owned guns" are either sport or hunting weapons, seeing one outside of hunting season basically does not happen and they're regulated:

* single-shot (per barrel) smooth bore long guns must be registered (for hunting or sports), buying requires showing an ID and either a hunting or a sports license (from an accredited gun club)

* air guns beyond 20j and various types of long runs replace the registering by a declaration (a more complex procedure)

* various more powerful and smaller weapons (including handguns) have to be authorised before they can be bought, for sports or defence (mostly professional). Amongst other concerns the would-be owner must have a clean criminal record, show a clean bill of health (physical & psych) under 1 month old and demonstrate ownership of a safe

* automatic, high-capacity (30 for long guns and 20 for handguns) and very-high caliber (>= 20mm) is forbidden

Guns must be disabled or under lock when not heading to, coming back from, or performing the activity they're used for.

I expect Norway, Finland, Canada or Germany are very similar: though specifics probably vary, weapons ownership is most likely regulated and generally restricted to hunting and sports (the licensed, olympics-able "Shooting Sports" kind, not the "I went at the range to play with a minigun" kind).

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#106

Post by meri_dian » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:15 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #95

I always grew up thinking that police had to wait until somebody shot at them to shoot back. It seems like "we thought he had a gun and he motioned towards his waist" has now replaced "he shot at us". I really wish that the police had to adhere to the same laws as anybody else does. They are civilians after all. If had a gun (I don't) and pointed it at somebody to intimidate them, even if they were trying to break in…

Police are not you or I in the context of social roles. They fulfill a particular function in society while on duty that you and I don't. They tend to deal with dangerous people.

People must do exactly as they're told when dealing with the police to minimize uncertainty and confusion.

An officer pulling a gun on someone is not equivalent in any way to a civilian doing the same thing. Officers are empowered by society to enforce the law so we don't have to. That necessitates displaying - and sometimes using - force.

If it's clear that someone presents an immediate mortal danger to others and refuses to comply with orders given to them then the police are justified in acting with force.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#107

Post by meri_dian » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune?

Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the bad guys, and refuse to take a balanced view by empathizing with them and the danger they encounter on a daily basis.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#108

Post by bastijn » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

api wrote: post #89

mmmBacon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

The blame can be placed on both. The person who faked a police report is guilty of homicide, but this was made possible by an overly trigger happy police force.

Here we have the exact opposite and police are often prosecuted for firing their weapon. Result is they get kicked, slapped, scolded and vocabulary assaulted by 13 year olds who know they would win the case for a judge if it comes to it (or otherwise get 40 hours of public service). Why? Because "police needs to know better and accept it as part of their job".

Maybe US is a bit much to the other side but with the statistics of people with guns there it makes sense.

You know what would help? If the police tells you to do something, do it without question or big mouthing. Cops tell you to put your hands where they can see them? Do it. Tell you to lie down? Do it. Fight them later for any unjust actions but while at gunpoint just beeping comply.

April from all that I hope they will prosecute the idiot swatter to set an example. This ain't no games you do for fun.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#109

Post by neom » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #70

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

When I watch the Philip Brailsford body cam footage, I find it hard to believe this is a sane assumption to operate under. The polite come in, in full tactical armer, to a guy in shorts and t-shirt, and execute him because he couldn't keep his pants up as he crawled across the floor towards them face down? Come on.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#110

Post by mmjaa » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #101

mmjaa wrote: post #90

At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but there has to be real moment of respect for the fact that Americans are living in a "dial-a-death" state of existence. This is something that many, many social commentators have warned us of, over the decades: the signs of a Police State. S…

In what kind of society does someone call 911, pretending to be homocidal, telling them they are pointing a gun at their wife and child, that they poured gasoline throughout the house, and are going to burn it down? The fact is there are people that really do this and someone needs to respond. The other fact is that other people think it’s funny, or a good way to get revenge on someone, by calling in a police force t…

I think there are plenty of societies which would not have responded to this incident with violent force, and would have checked themselves before they wrecked themselves as a consequence of normal, functioning, day-to-day job responsibilities.

The officers failed because the event horizon for each and every one of them was set way, way too high. Before you assume the caller was right, you verify. This thing of "arming for the absolute worst that could happen" is a direct consequence of the rest of society, being allowed to actually procure and apply the weapons of mayhem and crime, to other "innocent citizens".

A kid died tonight. It was because there was a tool of violence in the hands of another kid.