Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#101

Post by Bjartr » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

09bjb wrote: post #87

scintill76 wrote: post #86

> And so I set about fortifying my sense of self-control, based on the following factors: [Standards, Monitoring, and Strength] > Strength: ... I built my mental strength by running even when I didn’t want to—when I was sore, stressed, or sleepy. He built his will power by doing things he didn't have the will to do? One of the pillars of his self-control is that he has self-control? Maybe I'm missing something or jum…

I don't see a problem with this. Habits are self-reinforcing, good or bad. If you can interrupt a bad habit once, or start a good habit once, you give yourself more momentum for the next go-round. You have X probability of successfully doing it the first time, and you may or may not do what you set out to. But whether you do affects the probability that you'll do it the next time. And I'd be wary of anyone that claim…

>I'd be wary of anyone that claims that they never, ever, have any say in the matter when it comes to doing something once, even if it's hard.

When I hear "I don't have a say in the matter" I read frustration, not dismissal.

I'd posit that when people say that, they don't mean it literally. Or, rather, it's the best they can articulate the internal struggle. I've found the language I know (English) to not provide me with the tools to describe the nuance of the sensation of lacking self-control or willpower.

What I describe going forward is hard-won from long term introspection, and it still falls short of effectively communicating what I am really trying to say.

I would wager that, for a not insignificant fraction of people, when they tell you they "don't have a say in the matter" they are trying to articulate the feeling/sensation of having the intellectual understanding of the situation i.e. (paraphrased for brevity) "I should do X because it has benefits Y and Z, instead of A which has downsides B and C" but where merely having that understanding is insufficient to compel (willpower, initiative, motivation, w/e) themselves to action, for however long they choose to linger on it in their mind.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#102

Post by ovulator » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 10:33 PM UTC

TheAlchemist wrote: post #13

Willpower or not, I feel like running is really a great thing to do. Will Smith once said (or quoted, don't remember) that one should two things - run and read books. I definitely agree with that. I used to practice sports a lot, football and basketball and that had a positive effect on my teamwork ability. However, only when I started running I noticed how much this sport can influence one's life. There are no short…

I ran cross country in high school on a team that was nationally ranked. I ran my ass of all year long and trained with the team doing the exact same practices. I am short and stocky, no amount of practice is going to give me the long effortless stride of the fastest of my team mates. Like in most things, talent has plenty of influence.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#103

Post by rickpmg » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 11:27 PM UTC

majelix wrote: post #32

jmull wrote: post #28

I'm sorry, but this is all gobbledygook. Nice ad for "sword" sportfood products, though. For one thing, running 100 mile races isn't a very good standard for willpower or self control. There is virtually zero use for this capability, so whether you spend 5-10 hours a week to do so or not isn't really a question of self control. It's a question of what activities/hobbies you want to pursue in your free time. Staying f…

> There is virtually zero use for this capability [running 100 mile races] That's a major point of the article, given it's discussion of the spillover effect: "The bottom line: Practice self-control in one area of your life, and you can apply it in other parts, too."

I'm not so sure that's true... the example he gave about the non-dominant hand users being able to suppress their anger was questionable.

Plus, a whole slew of writers say that willpower is an expendable resource.. resist the cookie in the morning, and you will be less likely to resist a candy bar in the afternoon..

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#104

Post by proee » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 11:28 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #96

proee wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then I'm sure it's frustrating when a professional who runs a Marathon in close to 2 hours, hears you say the same thing.

I'm no 2-hour-marathon pro, just a has-been mediocre collegiate runner, but there's some understanding of the effort levels and dedication that are required, no matter the accomplishments. But there are runners, and there are joggers, and there are joggers that call themselves runners and post "26.2" stickers on their cars. By analogy, there's a difference between an HN celebrity, someone who does programming for a l…

Perhaps, but from my own personal experience, I missed out on some big entrepreneurial opportunities because I considered people below my skill level to be insignificant. The Arduino platform came out years ago, and I continuously dismissed it because I did not consider it a "real" embedded development platform. Yet, the platform exploded and lots of neat things resulted from the platform. In hindsight, I should have embraced the platform and realized that not everyone is a professional hardware designer. Now that my outlook has changed, if someone tells me they used an Arduino, I'm going to refrain from judgement and instead look at the bigger picture of who they are and congratulate them on taking the first step into hardware.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#105

Post by tedmc » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 11:38 PM UTC

kentt wrote: post #44

ErikAugust wrote: post #38

I run ultras and mountain races. I ran one this Friday night into Saturday morning - a 12 hour overnight trail race where I managed 100K (62mi) in 11 hours and 23 minutes. Anyway, let's throw out willpower and even genetics for a second so I can bring up something: In today's age, virtually no one is even remotely close to their physiological limits. Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marat…

> 18 minute miles is walking pace. Thank you for pointing this out. I'm so sick if people telling me they ran a marathon only to find out they walked. I'm totally fine with that being an accomplishment to finish, but it's entirely dissimilar to those who were racing.

It is racing for them.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#106

Post by Danihan » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 11:52 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #70

Danihan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does talent have almost no influence? There are many genetic factors that would impact how strong a runner is. You mention football and basketball, which are essentially a series of short sprints. Sprints are _much_ healthier for people than 100-mile marathons that will essentially bathe your body in cortisol. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-evidence-continues-to-mou...

It seems like the more paleo/crossfit "celebrities" contradict popular nutrition/exercise science, the more popular they get. I don't get it. The most influential figure in this space was probably Dr. Robert Atkins, who suffered multiple heart attacks, congestive heart failure, and hypertension. Why are people espousing the same junk science to be seen as credible sources?

Yes, obviously we should keep living on mostly grains, the same thing used to fatten up cattle for slaughter. I wonder why it hasn't worked yet to make everyone healthy.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#107

Post by hinkley » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 12:31 AM UTC

TheAlchemist wrote: post #13

Willpower or not, I feel like running is really a great thing to do. Will Smith once said (or quoted, don't remember) that one should two things - run and read books. I definitely agree with that. I used to practice sports a lot, football and basketball and that had a positive effect on my teamwork ability. However, only when I started running I noticed how much this sport can influence one's life. There are no short…

I have a crackpot theory that participating in a physically taxing activity partly resets the hedonic treadmill.

Most of the tragedies in day to day life are really minor but most of us lack perspective. I wouldn't wish an actual tragedy on anyone, but there are people in my life who could definitely benefit from taking up an endurance sport or doing real volunteer work.

I think a half marathon or a century (100 miles on a bike) will change your tune about the line at the DMV or how they don't have the phone case you wanted in the right color.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#108

Post by hinkley » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 12:36 AM UTC

ovulator wrote: post #102

TheAlchemist wrote: post #13

Willpower or not, I feel like running is really a great thing to do. Will Smith once said (or quoted, don't remember) that one should two things - run and read books. I definitely agree with that. I used to practice sports a lot, football and basketball and that had a positive effect on my teamwork ability. However, only when I started running I noticed how much this sport can influence one's life. There are no short…

I ran cross country in high school on a team that was nationally ranked. I ran my ass of all year long and trained with the team doing the exact same practices. I am short and stocky, no amount of practice is going to give me the long effortless stride of the fastest of my team mates. Like in most things, talent has plenty of influence.

If you show up to practice and do the same things the more advanced kids are doing, they're going to get better almost as fast as you, and you will always be behind.

The only time I ever caught up with anyone was when I did more than the coach/instructor asked.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#109

Post by 2309kdujj » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:41 AM UTC

anbende wrote: post #14

pkghost wrote: post #4

The willpower hypothesis is one of the larger tire fires in the disaster that is reproducibility in psychology research. https://www.google.com/search?q=willpower+reproducibility

Easy, the tire fire is specifically in social psychology research. Other areas of psychology (e.g. cognitive, developmental, personality, etc) have their problems but in most cases no more so than other disciplines.

To be fair, the reproducibility crisis is widespread throughout many, many areas of science. There are many tire fires all over the place; people just started noticing it in a widespread way with social psych:

http://www.nature.com/news/1-500-scientists-lift-the-lid-on-...

Also, to be fair, the willpower hypothesis that was discredited is really about ego-depletion, the idea that willpower is (or reflects) a finite resource that is used by an array of neuropsychological processes. It's not that crazy of an idea, as there are many limits in human behavior and physiology.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#110

Post by xiaoma » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 2:46 AM UTC

HorizonXP wrote: post #15

I'm a bit evangelical about low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets nowadays, especially keto. Personally, I'm not at the fitness level where I could conceivably run a marathon. Maybe a 5K or a half. But the article mentions him hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, and having his wife help him reach the finish. This guy: https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q runs ultra marathons, using fat for fuel. He leaves his fellow comp…

And yet Rob Krar isn't into low-carb, is pushing 40 and runs the same distances faster... For that matter, the Bison Bar mentioned in the video you linked to contains roughly equal amounts of protein and sugar! Not that it matters much. Frankly, ultra runners can get away with more mistakes since there's so much less competition at their distances.

The top competitive distance runners (a group dominated by Kenyans and Ethiopians) generally eat over 70% of their calories from carbohydrates. Naoko Takahashi said she loved Korean barbecue. Bill Rodgers, the dominant marathoner of the previous genration, seemed to live off of pizza slathered in mayonnaise. Paula Radcliffe talked about eating a lot of fruits, yogurt and granola. While many, many runners have sworn by various odd diets, it doesn't look like anyone has been able to get a sizable edge from theirs.

I only raced 5-10k ranges, but I used to run greater than marathon distances once or twice per month in the mountains for fun so I can have some personal experience with "walls". Even a skinny person has enough fat on them to run for far longer distances than any race I've heard of. The "walls" are more about glycogen limits in your muscles. Extending the wall is mostly an issue of how high your aerobic threshold is, how well you can spare glycogen at the beginning (though this probably matters less for ultras) and your running efficiency.

All three of these factors are influenced by diet to some degree but training is by far the more important factor. Strangely, caffeine has a bigger effect than macro-nutrient composition.