Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla • Hacker News Board

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#101

Post by 0xbear » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

jubalfh wrote: post #97

sctb wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outright trolling like this is not OK on Hacker News. Please don't do it again.

Misogyny, peddling conspiracy theories and blatant victim blaming are acceptable though? How about sarcasm?

If this is levied at me, I will concede the conspiracy theory charge. I have no evidence that this is "paid for by Soros" or anything like that. But to claim misogyny or victim blaming you need to point to some kind of verbiage which supports the claim. Nowhere did I deny that it could have happened (even though the only public source in this case was fired by an independent commission after her claims were found to be unsubstantiated) or that it does happen sometimes.

My main issue is the use of anonymous sources to convict Tesla in the court of public opinion.

Full disclosure: I don't own any Tesla product or stock and have never worked there.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#102

Post by greglindahl » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

novia wrote: post #90

davexunit wrote: post #21

Nearly all of the top-level comments thus far are disgusting and shameful. What is wrong with this place?

This satirical article kinda nails it: http://reductress.com/post/man-in-male-dominated-field-says-...

Actually there were several HN commenters on recent postings who had that sort of opinion.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#103

Post by lern_too_spel » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 9:22 PM UTC

araglia wrote: post #98

kevincrane wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't fight. Don't argue. Just leave. There are men and women who deal with harassment everyday gracefully. That's a horrifically regressive view on this. Why should the person being harassed have to leave? Why can't the person doing the harassing be forced out? And saying that leaving quietly is "handling it gracefully" puts the entire burden on the victim, as if not just graciously accepting someone's sexual adva…

No, it's a self-efficacious view. I never see myself as a victim. There is no burden. And that's where I can't see eye-to-eye with you on your thoughts. I've gotten tired of the thinkpieces and the people who write them. They're not doing anything but writing sanctimonious bullshit from their ivory tower. I take action. Whether you think leaving a toxic workplace quietly is not an acceptable response, then that's you…

Perhaps Rosa Parks should have just gone to the back of the bus instead of making a sanctimonious bullshit fuss. That sanctimonious bullshit from the ivory tower is the reason that things are as good as they are today relative to yesterday, as bad as things still are today.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#104

Post by thebiglebrewski » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 9:54 PM UTC

calafrax wrote: post #86

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #61

I am here to say (as a Tesla owner), that I truly hope this kind of behavior is not being tolerated by Tesla. I would hope Elon Musk or someone high up at the company investigates these claims. If they are baseless, they are baseless, but they are still worth investigating and possibly taking disciplinary and work process steps to fix them. In regards to Vandenmeyer's story: from what I've read...I'm not sure I think…

I think Tesla's and Elon Musk's response of publicly attacking this woman almost certainly indicates that they are at fault. If this woman's claims were false they would do best to keep quiet and wait for the legal process. They have a huge advantage with both the money to pay lawyers and many fawning media outlets willing to support them so if they were in the right they would be guaranteed to win if they just waite…

Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this means they're at fault and they've messed up just because of what they said, but I do think it's hurting them more than its helping.

As mentioned - yes, this very well could be a legit problem! I don't mean to dismiss this employees' claims lightly. With the person Musk is though, I bet he sees it as a petty "human" distraction towards getting his larger goals for humanity. That doesn't excuse the way he handles it, but just gives perspective on his response. He seems to be a little bit of a robot sometimes - I don't think human empathy is his strong suit.

I agree attacking women or anyone is stupid in general. Instead, hear the person out and promise to investigate. Then take action if necessary and if not, share the facts. I don't think anyone can disagree with that course of action but hotter heads prevail sometimes on short notice like this.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#105

Post by EddieSpeaks » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 10:13 PM UTC

The timing is kinda convenient isn't it? They just announced the Model 3 is on sale - this would be a great and convenient time to short against the company stock

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#106

Post by dang » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 11:56 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #22

0xbear wrote: post #2

I was wondering when the other shoe was going to drop. Now both of the "star" SV CEOs who had the gall to constructively engage with the administration are under fire for "harassment". I wonder how Thiel has managed to avoid these Alinsky playbook tactics so far. In any company of tens of thousands of people, you can always find a few people who are mistreated (even at such bastions of social justice as Google and Mi…

The fact that this comment hasn't been downvoted into oblivion yet (in fact, it may be the top comment on this thread right now) is galling. I'll go ahead and emphatically state that I did down-vote this, because chalking up someone being mistreated in the workforce to a coordinated liberal agenda will get you banned from the comment section on most real news websites, but apparently it makes you a fuckin' hero aroun…

> apparently it makes you a fuckin' hero around here

It takes time for the community's actual response to emerge in cases like this, not to mention for moderators to see them.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#107

Post by dang » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 11:57 PM UTC

jubalfh wrote: post #97

sctb wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outright trolling like this is not OK on Hacker News. Please don't do it again.

Misogyny, peddling conspiracy theories and blatant victim blaming are acceptable though? How about sarcasm?

Saying one thing is not ok does not imply that other things are ok.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#108

Post by dang » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 11:58 PM UTC

0xbear wrote: post #2

I was wondering when the other shoe was going to drop. Now both of the "star" SV CEOs who had the gall to constructively engage with the administration are under fire for "harassment". I wonder how Thiel has managed to avoid these Alinsky playbook tactics so far. In any company of tens of thousands of people, you can always find a few people who are mistreated (even at such bastions of social justice as Google and Mi…

This is (a) changing the subject, (b) lacking information, (c) partisan flamebait and (d) ideological boilerplate ("Alinsky playbook"). That easily clears the bar to be called political trolling whether you meant it that way or not. On HN we judge that by effect, not intent, because effects are what we're trying to optimize for. (If anyone wants a further explanation see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=...).

Bottom line, please stop and please don't post like this to HN.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#109

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 12:08 AM UTC

araglia wrote: post #83

gdulli wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So perhaps things have gotten better. Yes, because of the actions and attitudes of people who give the subject its due attention, not the people who write it off as fatiguing.

No, it's the fatigue and lack of attention that improves it. That is to say, the course of action that the actual affected individual takes. They stop taking the shit and leave. If this happens enough, then shitty employers go out of business.

You think the employers give a shit? They certainly don't, unless there's a lawsuit against them.

Just leaving doesn't make a statement to them. They don't care. They'll find someone else to fill that job, and if it's another women, they'll get treated just the same. They won't learn anything as long as there are people able to fill the seat, which there always will be.

You're naive if you think they'll go out of business just because you left. You're replaceable. Nearly everyone at every company is replaceable.

Re: Others are speaking up about discrimination at Tesla

#110

Post by dang » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 12:12 AM UTC

davexunit wrote: post #21

Nearly all of the top-level comments thus far are disgusting and shameful. What is wrong with this place?

I have to stick up a bit for the community as a whole. There have been at least three relatively (emphasis on relatively—in absolute terms still pretty bad) substantive discussions of sexual harassment on HN recently. This one is certainly much worse, but the trend can't be monotonic; the community is far too large and divided for that. If we judge by all the data points, the trend seems positive. But it's slow.